Quattroporte/QP 2009 Bose NIT Silverbox: Suspected HDD Failure

MaseratiGent

Junior Member
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53
You can get IDE to convertors as we have them on some Startech docks/duplicators we have here. Also we have IDE to USB and loads of other old IDE cables connectors and all sorts

We have done tons of block or OS level duplication, copies, restores and the like over the years of varying OS's, drives, interfaces. Different sized disks and loads of different software tools.
Thank you for the information and offer. However, I have an IDE-USB converter, which I've tried. It seems that the HDD is firmware password protected/encrypted (based on other car manufacturer Bose installations and from my own experience with my Bose HDD). There is only one way to unlock such a device and that is with a native PATA IDE interface and software zu.exe cited in an earlier post (here an automotive software engineer explains in the embedded post about his own car experience with a failed HDD on a Bose system: https://www.sportsmaserati.co.uk/index.php?threads/quattroporte-qp-2009-bose-nit-silverbox-suspected-hdd-failure.30273/post-738574).
 

rockits

Member
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I see. Ok makes sense.

Is it not as simple as getting a known good donor disk and duplicating this in a dock to a new disk or has that been tried?

Docks are OS and file system format independent as just work at block level. It has no idea what the file system or data is so just duplicates the data at block level.
 

MaseratiGent

Junior Member
Messages
53
I see. Ok makes sense.

Is it not as simple as getting a known good donor disk and duplicating this in a dock to a new disk or has that been tried?

Docks are OS and file system format independent as just work at block level. It has no idea what the file system or data is so just duplicates the data at block level.
Once unlocked it would operate like any other HDD (so it would work in an IDE-USB adapter/dock) - you'd see the partitions and files. However to unlock a firmware protected HDD it needs a one-time native IDE connection unlock using that software.
 

CatmanV2

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31,884
Once unlocked it would operate like any other HDD (so it would work in an IDE-USB adapter/dock) - you'd see the partitions and files. However to unlock a firmware protected HDD it needs a one-time native IDE connection unlock using that software.
I think the point Dean's trying to make is that using a dock should just be able to do a block level copy, so won't care if it's locked or otherwise. If you had . a known good one.

C
 

MaseratiGent

Junior Member
Messages
53
I think the point Dean's trying to make is that using a dock should just be able to do a block level copy, so won't care if it's locked or otherwise. If you had . a known good one.

C
I've tried raw data copies (block level) in Windows, Linux and Linux bootdisk without joy. The firmware encryption/password protection precludes acknowledgement of any partitions/volumes to be able to do a block level.

Happy to try another tack but I spent about 3 hours on that one:)

The firmware password is doing it's job to be fair.

The less said about the 8 day brute force on a totally different but related issue on this journey the better;)
 

CatmanV2

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I've tried raw data copies (block level) in Windows, Linux and Linux bootdisk without joy. The firmware encryption/password protection precludes acknowledgement of any partitions/volumes to be able to do a block level.

Happy to try another tack but I spent about 3 hours on that one:)
Fair call!
C
 

rockits

Member
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6,826
The standalone docks don't connect to a computer or OS at all. When we duplicate using software it often adds complications and issues. These don't exist with standalone docks.

The only caveat is that the destination disk needs to be the same size or bigger than the source disk. If it is smaller it won't start.a duplication.

It will also duplicate bad data and errors. So the source disk needs to be good to start with. Sometimes with a failing disk with mechanical issues it will still work if some parts of the disk has read issues just will take several bites.if the cherry to read data but will still duplicate it over time.

I don't any locked or otherwise partitions would be an issue this way as the docks are working at the lowest level possible and below raw data or partition or file system levels. You can't get any lower really.

We could use this method for all our duplications we do but it takes much longer as is duplicating every block regardless of if there is data on it or not. So a bigger disk will take proportionally longer than a smaller disk.

However using something like AIP we take a stock Windows PC image it to a new PC in about 5 mins. Even to dissimilar hardware. A dock with a 240gb SSD might take an hour or so to duplicate and a conventional mechanical disk maybe 2 hours or more.

We have maybe half a dozen or more licensed softwares we use for imaging, duplications and backup. Different tools are better for different jobs.

We provide local and off-site backup services to our customers as a core service and have done for years. We use both StorageCraft ShadowProtect and NetJapan AIP for our main stuff and AIP for all day to day imaging.

The tools like EaseUS, Acronis, Paragon Partition Manager, Partition Wizard, AOMEI, MiniTool and others. Generally Carbon copy for a MAC.

A dock should work OK. Happy to try if we have both source and destination disks available. Sometimes simple is easier and better. The more complex and more variables often the more issues.
 

Zep

Moderator
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3,632
Sorry to thread crash, but would one of those be good for copying the hd in my Sky box onto a new one?
 

rockits

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Sorry to thread crash, but would one of those be good for copying the hd in my Sky box onto a new one?
Yup, don't see any reason why not. I've used them for set top boxes, DVR/NVR boxes and all sorts over the years. Unless there is something weird and wonderful which in my experience often there isn't then no reason why not.

Aside from my caveats above about making sure the destination disk is the same or bigger than the source there are a couple of other possible considerations.

You can use a different manuafcture and spec of drive often with no issues. A hard drive is a hard drive at the end of the day.

There may be certain custom main board firmware's and/or OS's that will only address a single specific drive or manufacturer or size. It is rare and also less common now. I worked out a way years ago to upgrade EFi Fiery RIP's from say a 300i to 500i but it needed specific memory, CPU and hard disk. Also a certain combination of DIP switches settings. Took me maybe 100 hours of playing to work out maybe. The savings were immense though. Maybe a new EFi ZX30 was £10k and a ZX50 was £25k. However to upgrade a ZX30 to a ZX50 cost maybe £3k in parts. You could sell a ZX50 much cheaper than anyone else and still make huge margins. I forget the exact nunbers and I could be way off but the numbers were massively different. Canon obviously didn't like it. The photocopier world was very wide and shark invested back then

I was doing this for someone else who owned the business at the time and I was just consulting and providing a technical resource for them. I went fully on my own shortly after ;)

Sorry I digress! It is rare to see.such things and limitations now though but it is possible and means the manufacturer can charge extortionate amounts say £250 for a £100 hard drive. It is unlikely until you get to silly high end custom kit.

Other issue might be a board only being able to address a maximum size. Again less rare but not uncommon. Some TV's or mobiles or cameras etc. might only address a maximum sized disk or memory card or USB stick.

All this is common on game consoles and set top boxes so I would suggest it would be fine and possible. Sky and the like often have cheap boxes and don't worry about locking or hard coding certain drives I wouldn't have thought. I could be wrong as not tried a Sky one but I reckon it would work.

Buy one from Amazon, try it and send it back if it doesn't work

Happy to lend you one or try doing it for you if you wanted. Unless anyone has a Sky box they want to send me to try it with?
 

rockits

Member
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6,826
I've tried raw data copies (block level) in Windows, Linux and Linux bootdisk without joy. The firmware encryption/password protection precludes acknowledgement of any partitions/volumes to be able to do a block level.

Happy to try another tack but I spent about 3 hours on that one:)

The firmware password is doing it's job to be fair.

The less said about the 8 day brute force on a totally different but related issue on this journey the better;)
I am sure it would be possible to clone a password protected disk at hardware level. An encrypted disk is very different but a password protected one should be possible.

It is similar to BIOS passwords. You cannot bypass then without a password the same way. However there are back doors to remove them as I have done it with Intel & HP and several machines.

I don't think you would need to though but would be keen to try. Again by being clever or keeping it simple is the key. A brute force route or try to guess it won't be easy.

If the drive has a mechanical hardware issue if you buy a new indentical drive and swap the controller boards that would likely work. I still think a simple hardware duplication is potentially possible though and by far the easiest. Only way we will find out is to try.
 

Zep

Moderator
Messages
3,632
Yup, don't see any reason why not. I've used them for set top boxes, DVR/NVR boxes and all sorts over the years. Unless there is something weird and wonderful which in my experience often there isn't then no reason why not.

Aside from my caveats above about making sure the destination disk is the same or bigger than the source there are a couple of other possible considerations.

You can use a different manuafcture and spec of drive often with no issues. A hard drive is a hard drive at the end of the day.

There may be certain custom main board firmware's and/or OS's that will only address a single specific drive or manufacturer or size. It is rare and also less common now. I worked out a way years ago to upgrade EFi Fiery RIP's from say a 300i to 500i but it needed specific memory, CPU and hard disk. Also a certain combination of DIP switches settings. Took me maybe 100 hours of playing to work out maybe. The savings were immense though. Maybe a new EFi ZX30 was £10k and a ZX50 was £25k. However to upgrade a ZX30 to a ZX50 cost maybe £3k in parts. You could sell a ZX50 much cheaper than anyone else and still make huge margins. I forget the exact nunbers and I could be way off but the numbers were massively different. Canon obviously didn't like it. The photocopier world was very wide and shark invested back then

I was doing this for someone else who owned the business at the time and I was just consulting and providing a technical resource for them. I went fully on my own shortly after ;)

Sorry I digress! It is rare to see.such things and limitations now though but it is possible and means the manufacturer can charge extortionate amounts say £250 for a £100 hard drive. It is unlikely until you get to silly high end custom kit.

Other issue might be a board only being able to address a maximum size. Again less rare but not uncommon. Some TV's or mobiles or cameras etc. might only address a maximum sized disk or memory card or USB stick.

All this is common on game consoles and set top boxes so I would suggest it would be fine and possible. Sky and the like often have cheap boxes and don't worry about locking or hard coding certain drives I wouldn't have thought. I could be wrong as not tried a Sky one but I reckon it would work.

Buy one from Amazon, try it and send it back if it doesn't work

Happy to lend you one or try doing it for you if you wanted. Unless anyone has a Sky box they want to send me to try it with?
There is a free program called Copy+ which does it, but I need a caddy and one of these isn’t much more money so I thought it might be easier.

I had a ZX80 in the 80’s so the ZX50 must be really old hat. Does it load games from a tape too?
 

Ebenezer

Member
Messages
2,100
Talking of Nit problems, and not of the small child infestation type, I had funny one today. 2007 QP so orginal NIT with presumably no HDD, just firmware. Press the CD-C button (CD changer) to source the Loudlink which has replaced the CD changer and I get the message "Starting CD-C Application Please Wait". Very wierd. Other sources and application seemed ok. Turning the car on an off didn't solve it immedeiately but it finally came to it's senses after after a couple of hours.

Don't recall anyone ever mentioning this sort of error before.
Eb
 

rockits

Member
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6,826
There is a free program called Copy+ which does it, but I need a caddy and one of these isn’t much more money so I thought it might be easier.

I had a ZX80 in the 80’s so the ZX50 must be really old hat. Does it load games from a tape too?
Yes a duplicator is certainly easier and more reliable. Tends to also work with disks that have minor read errors. The software option via a PC often fails but you can turn off ignore read errors but the.it doesn't try to much to read and transfer some data so it can miss some. One a healthy disk it is always fine though in the main.

Do you have a problem disk? Or just want a bigger or faster disk?

Sorry, I want clear. The model codes 300, 500, ZX30, ZX50 etc. were all EFi Fiery RIP's. Basically a piece of hardware to turn a copier into a network printer for colour postscript printing. All made by Electronics For Imaging (EFi) for Canon and other copier companies.

I was always a Commodore guy . A C64, 128D and an Amiga A500 for me those days.

I spent a year or so contracting and consulting for various copier companies also doing end to end colour calibration across workflows. Must have been more than 20 years ago though!
 

Zep

Moderator
Messages
3,632
Do you have a problem disk? Or just want a bigger or faster disk?
The original disc is fine, but I know it’s getting old as I have to rebuild the EPG recently. I then noted that a new box was cheaper than a new HDD. With the advantage (!) of taking it to bits to make it work.

I was always a Commodore guy . A C64, 128D and an Amiga A500 for me those days.
Ah. I always wanted an Amiga, never got one. I mean, a disc drive. What witchcraft was that! :p
 

rockits

Member
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6,826
I had a few Sky boxes knocking around for years and couldn't sell them on eBay for more than 99p! Your likely right that a replacement box could be cheaper than a new HD!

Yes, had the internal 3.5" floppy and I got the external 5.25" hobbies as well. A whole 512k of memory upgraded to 1mb

Those days ram upgrades were £25 per 1mb
 

MaseratiGent

Junior Member
Messages
53
Update:
From decompiling images and various other tricks (from the official update CDs) I think I know about 70% of the Bose NIT file structure. In addition I have I think around 40% of the files for the system albeit version 2.0 as opposed to 1.07 as installed in the 2009-2010 cars. This is helpful in that if I have a recoverable HDD and the corruption is in the 40% I can likely make a viable image (system). Of course a fully working HDD image or original image is the best situation.

Hopefully one of the latter I will have at the end of the coming week.
 

Keano

Junior Member
Messages
239
Update:
From decompiling images and various other tricks (from the official update CDs) I think I know about 70% of the Bose NIT file structure. In addition I have I think around 40% of the files for the system albeit version 2.0 as opposed to 1.07 as installed in the 2009-2010 cars. This is helpful in that if I have a recoverable HDD and the corruption is in the 40% I can likely make a viable image (system). Of course a fully working HDD image or original image is the best situation.

Hopefully one of the latter I will have at the end of the coming week.
Mine is working and if you want to copy that for an image let me know