Defacing Statues

[Nayf]

Have lived in NZ. Lived with and worked with plenty of Maoris and Pacific Islanders. Found very little racism towards them among the white population and they certainly had no trouble getting jobs. Seemed very little friction between races there. Markedly better than in UK. And especially considering they had an indigenous population. Also many people were part Maori and you’d never know unless it came up in conversation. Situation there was In marked contrast to Australia and the aboriginals’ situation.

As for Brazil, a majority of the population consider themselves to be mixed race..... Ergo, being non white is not a minority

Brazil is a big place. In my wife’s home state, Bahia, there’s a certain amount of truth to that. However the further south you go, the less that applies. In fact, some parts of Brazil are somewhat... Austrian, thanks to some quick escapees after 1945. The current president is hardly a bastion of social cohesiveness (look into him and his father’s history). Makes Trump look intelligent.

 

[MarkMas]

bang on the money there and all this protesting is just another excuse for a jolly for some hardcore waste of space trouble makers that have a chip on the shoulder with the establishement, read some interesting facts recently, from 2010-2020 a total of 163 people died in police custody, 140 were white, 13 black and 10 were others, just all media hype and only serves to stoke the fire further, racism card is pulled far too often these days, good or bad you cant erase history

So, are you saying that although black people make up 3.4% of the population (2011 census), the fact that they make up 8% of people who died in custody is just fine, because being over twice as likely to die is custody if you are black is nothing to worry about.

http://www.irr.org.uk/research/statistics/ethnicity-and-religion/

 

[MartyG]

So, are you saying that although black people make up 3.4% of the population (2011 census), the fact that they make up 8% of people who died in custody is just fine, because being over twice as likely to die is custody if you are black is nothing to worry about.

http://www.irr.org.uk/research/statistics/ethnicity-and-religion/

It's really nothing to do with population figures though is it? The majority of the population won't be in police custody as they innocent law abiding citizens.

 

[Rwc13]

But surely what you should be looking A-T îs the percentage taken into custody, not of the entire population, no?

 

[lozcb]

So, are you saying that although black people make up 3.4% of the population (2011 census), the fact that they make up 8% of people who died in custody is just fine, because being over twice as likely to die is custody if you are black is nothing to worry about.

http://www.irr.org.uk/research/statistics/ethnicity-and-religion/

Seems your manipulating the statistics to suit your argument, Surely Mark , whats more relevant here and probably the reason for double the number ....................is the number of crimes committed by black people to the number committed by white people that actually get committed to custody in the first place , hence the likleyhood of something happening untoward is also likely to increase ........................or am i missing something here

 

[MarkMas]

Banksy has the answer!

 

[lozcb]

I think Mark is a bit of a closet anti establishment subversive on the quiet , .............................but all is forgiven after all his most important redeeming factor he's a Masser fanatic

 

[CatmanV2]

This is rapidly degrading into the Constable Savage sketch

'Why do you keep arresting this man'
'He's a jailbird sir'

So BAME commit more crime because they just aren't law abiding? I'll just let that follow itself I think

C

 

[MarkMas]

Seems your manipulating the statistics to suit your argument, Surely Mark , whats more relevant here and probably the reason for double the number ....................is the number of crimes committed by black people to the number committed by white people that actually get committed to custody in the first place , hence the likleyhood of something happening untoward is also likely to increase ........................or am i missing something here

Well , I'm not 'manipulating the statistics', I merely provided data from the 2011 census, and calculated some percentages, to show that the raw numbers given by @lifes2short were not were not actually telling us anything. (Except perhaps that people tend to overestimate how many black people there are in the UK.)

But you make a good point about arrest rates. And indeed it turns out that someone is three times more likely to be arrested if they are black (for whatever reason), but then they are proportionately slightly less likely to die is custody. So that is great news if you are black and already in custody. I suppose.



Arrests figures (2017/18) from: https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures...olicing/number-of-arrests/latest#by-ethnicity

 

[Oneball]

Banksy has the answer!

View attachment 71229

Looking at that I’m shocked that in this day and age no one stopped them and asked them to fill in a risk assessment.

 

[lozcb]

This is rapidly degrading into the Constable Savage sketch

'Why do you keep arresting this man'
'He's a jailbird sir'

So BAME commit more crime because they just aren't law abiding? I'll just let that follow itself I think

C

I'll be writing off to the ONS and get them to change things a little to suit you sir, just to suit you

 

[doodlebug]

I can count a Brazilian and a New Zealander among my good friends and I think you are grossly misinformed... In Brazil you just wont get on the white job system if your BAME and in NZ its better but not much, Brazil still has a long way to go.
Sweden has had more terrorist bombs in the last year than any other EU country , largely from unhappy immigrants though.

Your good Kiwi friend has misinformed you. NZ is significantly better than it is here. I agree it's not perfect, but until I came to the UK to live, I couldn't believe how bad it was here.

 

[lozcb]

Banksy has the answer!

View attachment 71229

Mark is that you 2nd from the left

 

[MarkMas]

I think Mark is a bit of a closet anti establishment subversive on the quiet , .............................but all is forgiven after all his most important redeeming factor he's a Masser fanatic

Ha!

My politics has evolved quite a lot over the years. I look and sound like a red-trousered Tory old geezer, and I am pro military, pro monarchy, anti-socialist, etc.



But I am also socially very liberal, and in favour of things like universal basic income. So I am hard to place on the political spectrum. I come out as a Leftist, Libertarian Conservative.

 

[lifes2short]

So, are you saying that although black people make up 3.4% of the population (2011 census), the fact that they make up 8% of people who died in custody is just fine, because being over twice as likely to die is custody if you are black is nothing to worry about.

http://www.irr.org.uk/research/statistics/ethnicity-and-religion/

it doesn't matter how you want to turn it and you can throw as many stats around as you want , it doesn't change the fact that imo it wasn't anything to do about racism, it was a cop who clearly was a thug and probably would of done exactly same thing if it was a white fella, you may have a different opinion though

 

[MarkMas]

Mark is that you 2nd from the left

No, I'm fatter than any of those!

 

[Rwc13]

I’m still waiting for somebody to point me to evidence that George Floyd’s death was racially motivated.......

 

[MarkMas]

it doesn't matter how you want to turn it and you can throw as many stats around as you want , it doesn't change the fact that imo it wasn't anything to do about racism, it was a cop who clearly was a thug and probably would of done exactly same thing if it was a white fella, you may have a different opinion though

I agree that it seems to me that in the US there is a huge problem with cops just being thugs and also being scared and defensive (not completely unreasonably) which makes them aggressive and violent. You can see plenty of video evidence of them pushing around old white people to demonstrate this.

BUT I think that this problem is greatly compounded by racism, in that their thuggishness is particularly aimed at people they 'expect' to be dangerous or 'assume' to be powerless and so they target black people. There is plenty of evidence that if a US cop sees a black person the assume 'trouble' and if they see a white person they do not have the same stance. And, when black people are also getting pushed around in the workplace, etc, they are sensitive to these oppressions and so there is the potential for a spiral of escalation in any encounter with the cops.

I think the UK also has this problem, but to a MUCH lower extent, both less racism and less violence. But it is still something to be worked on. This short video is interesting (and somewhat cheering) as the UK cop and citizen both behave in a lovely way. BUT in the end it is pretty clear to me that the citizen was being questioned because he was 'a black man in a nice car'.

 

[Alexpie]

Exactly , just been reported Floyyd is hailed the cornestone of a movement.................................................i really fear for this generation they way they are getting manipulated so easily by social media

From what I've read he was a nasty piece of work throughout his life, but reformed himself in the last few years. It doesn't make what happened to him right, but not the type you'd really hail as a martyr whilst defacing Churchill's statue (who also did a lot of bad & good things.)

The point I am trying to make is that in my opinion these figures need to be remembered as the sum of their existence, not for one chapter of it. Churchill made some questionable choices that resulted in a lot of people dying, but had he not lead the country to war and beat the Nazi's I believe life for the minorities would be much harder for them today than it is currently. Stopping them was a win for all races and religions in the long run, so out of all of them, I personally think his statue in particular should have been left alone. Maybe not so much the one in Bristol, but that statue seemed like a more elaborate version of people leaving money and having a park bench in their remembrance by a bloke who made his money from slave trading. He is not an important figure in improving the country for all who live there, more so "Here's a bloke who made all his money immorally (albeit legally at the time) and didn't know who to leave it to, so gave it to the city" Probably comparable to a modern day wealthy pensioner leaving their money to the cats protection league because they like cats and didn't have any family to leave it to.. doesn't warrant a statue in my opinion.
Floyd was apparently a repeat offending criminal for things such as armed robbery, and something I saw (not sure if true) said he robbed a pregnant woman by holding a gun to her 'bump', which takes a special type of ******* if you ask me. BUT, his death has highlighted the bad practice of some of the american police force, and reignited the discussion over racism which is a very good thing when done in the right way, as here in the UK we are a lot more accepting than most countries, but by no means free of racism.
Will he be remembered as a criminal for his bad deeds, or as a martyr to the BLM movement?
The same way Churchill is remembered for being a symbol of British spirit and defeating the Nazi's, and not for other things he did throughout his life, because those things aren't celebrated, the same way Floyd's criminal past isn't being celebrated.

I think the problem is, the protests are tainted by ulterior motives as we've seen with people looking to cause trouble, criminal damage and act violently towards the police. As well as these, you have the white middle class champagne socialists jumping on it like they did with greta, as a new cult they can follow to rebel against their parents/the government and to 'show solidarity' to the under dog, and show they are such caring humans to gain instagram followers and scream personal insults at anyone who dare try to engage in questioning them with reasonable discussion. Ignoring the fact they're usually propped up by capitalist families and their ancestors were probably as bad as the people who's statues they are campaigning to have removed. It's a shame they've chose to jump on this, as their behaviour detracts from the cause, the same as it did with brexit, the election etc. The left are, in my opinion in no position to be screaming about racism given the very recent history of it being rife within the Labour party, but I suppose that was a different race so it's ok. That's another discussion though.

And as another point, has anyone seen any BLM protests about atrocities happening to them in other areas of the world, other than Europe and the US? I haven't.

For the record, I can hand on heart say I have only been on the receiving end of any racial abuse(and not many times), which doesn't really follow the rhetoric as i'm white.. It's not something I really think about as I've not been dragged up to judge someone by race, religion etc, and I don't. But I do acknowledge it still exists in society. However, I think campaigning to remove anything that has benefited from slavery is mad, you need to wipe the everything off the face of the planet because every country and civilisation will have benefited from it at some point in history.

Sorry, long rant over

DISCLAIMER : All views are my own, and I am a bit of a tw.at by self admission

 

[Rwc13]

But in this particular case, that has been promoted as a clear racist killing, there appears to be no actual evidence, none, that it was racially motivated. But what we appear to know is that George Floyd was a serial criminal with a history of drugs and gun crime who presented a fake note to buy cigarettes whilst off his face on a cocktail of drugs, who refused to return the cigarettes, who was resisting attempts to put him in the back of a police car on the basis of claustrophobia (having just got out of another car). I am not excusing the actions of the officers but I am seriously questioning the racist motivation in this case and the hysteria and lies that are making him into some kind of martyr and idol, sadly supported by celebrities. Is there any wonder so many of our young people have trouble with the difference between right and wrong?