Defacing Statues

[Wanderer]

I think all statues should go, not in this way obvs but as society becomes more enlightened people are either impressed or offended. The Irish in me knows Churchill was a twaat for what he did but he did lead the UK's war effort. Also I'd warrant most people are under the illusion Britain won the war, they did, but with the Soviet Union, USA, The Commonwealth and many other European Allies.

The Sov's removed all Stalin statues when reality downed and he was actually a twaat but Lenin's remain. He had a certain altruism as he legalised homosexuality and promoted equality etc, but like Hitler with the Autobahns, vegetarianism, and animal rights, should he have statues for that bit but not the war and Jew thing?

Gonna get flamed for this but the way public personae are now promoted they have to be 100% squeaky clean and nobody is. Dirt everywhere and they get away with for a while as we've seen in history and currently with Trump and Johnson, they'll get there's too eventually...

Don's Falk (sorry!) jacket....

 

[Oneball]

I think all statues should go, not in this way obvs but as society becomes more enlightened people are either impressed or offended. The Irish in me knows Churchill was a twaat for what he did but he did lead the UK's war effort. Also I'd warrant most people are under the illusion Britain won the war, they did, but with the Soviet Union, USA, The Commonwealth and many other European Allies.

The Sov's removed all Stalin statues when reality downed and he was actually a twaat but Lenin's remain. He had a certain altruism as he legalised homosexuality and promoted equality etc, but like Hitler with the Autobahns, vegetarianism, and animal rights, should he have statues for that bit but not the war and Jew thing?

Gonna get flamed for this but the way public personae are now promoted they have to be 100% squeaky clean and nobody is. Dirt everywhere and they get away with for a while as we've seen in history and currently with Trump and Johnson, they'll get there's too eventually...

Don's Falk (sorry!) jacket....

Why are you wearing Columbo’s mac?

 

[allandwf]

Where do you stop though? Public opinion always changes through the ages, do we just live in a blandness where there is nothing as it may offend. What happened to our ability to ignore something, or choose not to watch something?

 

[Nayf]

Where do you stop though? Public opinion always changes through the ages, do we just live in a blandness where there is nothing as it may offend. What happened to our ability to ignore something, or choose not to watch something?

The thing is though, Churchill’s place in history and his reverence was always on shaky ground once you go beyond the war hero stuff.
There’s a reason the UK voted him out as quick as it did once the war was won. Not many appear to ask why...

 

[conaero]

Statues are a mark of our history, not all of it good I agree and should stay as a reminder of what they stand for.

Seeing those protesters ignoring social distance and criminal damage to that statue has enraged me.

Where were the police?

 

[allandwf]

The thing is though, Churchill’s place in history and his reverence was always on shaky ground once you go beyond the war hero stuff.
There’s a reason the UK voted him out as quick as it did once the war was won. Not many appear to ask why...

I agree, but a statue doesn't offend. I just ignore, but I suppose it's not in my garden so to speak. Are we going to replace street names etc. if they refer to something we don't like, or happen to disagree with?

 

[Andyk]

Statues are a mark of our history, not all of it good I agree and should stay as a reminder of what they stand for.

Seeing those protesters ignoring social distance and criminal damage to that statue has enraged me.

Where were the police?

100% agree Matt...

 

[Wanderer]

Where do you stop though? Public opinion always changes through the ages, do we just live in a blandness where there is nothing as it may offend. What happened to our ability to ignore something, or choose not to watch something?

I dunno - it's getting like Soviet Union with former heroes being denounced like Stalin etc...

 

[Nayf]

Yes, but having the town you live in pay reverence to someone who caused immense pain and suffering...

I agree, but a statue doesn't offend. I just ignore, but I suppose it's not in my garden so to speak. Are we going to replace street names etc. if they refer to something we don't like, or happen to disagree with?

The Churchill debate is one thing.
The Colston statue - look into his history and you have to wonder why it’s not happened before. The chucking it into the water was not just because it was convenient or made good TV, it’s rather more symbolic than that...

 

[Andyk]

I think all statues should go, not in this way obvs but as society becomes more enlightened people are either impressed or offended. The Irish in me knows Churchill was a twaat for what he did but he did lead the UK's war effort. Also I'd warrant most people are under the illusion Britain won the war, they did, but with the Soviet Union, USA, The Commonwealth and many other European Allies.

The Sov's removed all Stalin statues when reality downed and he was actually a twaat but Lenin's remain. He had a certain altruism as he legalised homosexuality and promoted equality etc, but like Hitler with the Autobahns, vegetarianism, and animal rights, should he have statues for that bit but not the war and Jew thing?

Gonna get flamed for this but the way public personae are now promoted they have to be 100% squeaky clean and nobody is. Dirt everywhere and they get away with for a while as we've seen in history and currently with Trump and Johnson, they'll get there's too eventually...

Don's Falk (sorry!) jacket....

Can't say statues have ever offended me.....and not sure all should go....

 

[rossyl]

Statues are a mark of our history, not all of it good I agree and should stay as a reminder of what they stand for.

Seeing those protesters ignoring social distance and criminal damage to that statue has enraged me.

Where were the police?

One might ask the same question about last weekend and the weekend before, about the lack of police presence at all the beaches in the UK.

 

[Wanderer]

Statues are a mark of our history, not all of it good I agree and should stay as a reminder of what they stand for.

Seeing those protesters ignoring social distance and criminal damage to that statue has enraged me.

Where were the police?

I agree with points 2 and 3 but point one would allow Hitler statues to be left standing or even Sadam Hussein in Germany and Iraq.

It's not an easy choice in this day and age with so much access to the truth behind them..

 

[allandwf]

I'm just asking where it will stop, you could argue the crusades caused pain, so do we bin all that history too? Ignore the bits we don't like? We should learn from it, but surely not erase it?

 

[DaveT]

The thing is though, Churchill’s place in history and his reverence was always on shaky ground once you go beyond the war hero stuff.
There’s a reason the UK voted him out as quick as it did once the war was won. Not many appear to ask why...

Without him we wouldn't have had the chance to vote him out.

 

[Oneball]

I’ve no particular desire to see a statue of Colston but it’s a part of our history, good or bad where does it stop? Should we tear down Julius Ceasar’s statue in the forum in Rome or Shaka Zulu’s in Camden or Boudica’s outside Parliament or Ramases the Great’s in Cairo or Moctezuma’s in Mexico City? They all owned slaves.

You can’t learn from the past by wiping it out. Almost certainly out of context but Santayana and Heine’s comments still hold true.

 

[rockits]

I'm similar to Matt really.

It is our history and some will agree and some won't agree. For those who don't agree they have destroyed something that someone else my like to see. I am not talking of this particular instance but generalising.

There are two ways of looking at this statue possibly. One that is is abhorant and shouldn't exist. The flip side is that it should exist for exactly the same reasons ironically. To remind us of this issue so we remember and never forget.

Just because I don't like something does it give me the right to deface or destroy it? Or if I don't like someone does it give me the right to kick 10 bells out of them? Not really.

There will always be exceptions to this. I don't think I would like to see a statue anywhere of Jimmy Saville.

I think many are using this as a reason to let out some frustration. I don't see how violant and criminal behaviour achieves much does it?

It is a bit different to topple Gaddafi's statue when he fell. This is not quite the same is it?

I haven't a strong opinion either way. However I don't think behaviour like this at a time of lockdown when we have a pretty important issue to focus on isn't very intelligent or socially supportable.

 

[Nayf]

Without him we wouldn't have had the chance to vote him out.

Yeah and that’s why I separated him out from Colston. The Churchill debate will rage, but I don’t know where I sit with it.

 

[Delmonte]

I think all statues should go, not in this way obvs but as society becomes more enlightened people are either impressed or offended. The Irish in me knows Churchill was a twaat for what he did but he did lead the UK's war effort. Also I'd warrant most people are under the illusion Britain won the war, they did, but with the Soviet Union, USA, The Commonwealth and many other European Allies.

The Sov's removed all Stalin statues when reality downed and he was actually a twaat but Lenin's remain. He had a certain altruism as he legalised homosexuality and promoted equality etc, but like Hitler with the Autobahns, vegetarianism, and animal rights, should he have statues for that bit but not the war and Jew thing?

Gonna get flamed for this but the way public personae are now promoted they have to be 100% squeaky clean and nobody is. Dirt everywhere and they get away with for a while as we've seen in history and currently with Trump and Johnson, they'll get there's too eventually...

Don's Falk (sorry!) jacket....

Thought there were a few statues of uncle joe still remain in some parts of former SU?

Other than that, keep statues of heroes, maybe like football legends at their club grounds etc. But never, ever, of politicians. That will always bite you on your **** in time

 

[rossyl]

I agree with points 2 and 3 but point one would allow Hitler statues to be left standing or even Sadam Hussein in Germany and Iraq.

It's not an easy choice in this day and age with so much access to the truth behind them..

However, how many people actually do know the truth behind, for example, Churchill? Criticising, the Nazi concentration camps, then doing the exact same thing in Kenya.

I don't think your average person does.

As for statues, I am for them.
However, I am equally for a balanced education in schools, making people recognise that those statues represent both the bad that was done as well as the good. Otherwise, how else do you learn?

 

[DaveT]

Yeah and that’s why I separated him out from Colston. The Churchill debate will rage, but I don’t know where I sit with it.

Ok. When you've worked out your position let us know. Flawed character undoubtedly but without him in that time period we would have been ******.