Brexit Deal

whereskeith

whereskeith

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FIFTY said:
Then surely it is the same as what is going on now?

We were presented with two options

- Remain in the EU = business as usual

- Leave the EU = ????

Whatever happens after we leave is now totally beyond the electorates control
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Remain in the EU will only temporarily be business as usual, The EU continues on a set path to a United federation state of Europe.
 
Wattie

Wattie

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May trapped in the back of the Benz, with no unilateral way of exit.
Yup, that sums it up.
 
Gogs253

Gogs253

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132
FIFTY said:
Then surely it is the same as what is going on now?

We were presented with two options

- Remain in the EU = business as usual

- Leave the EU = ????

Whatever happens after we leave is now totally beyond the electorates control
Click to expand...

Not quite, in 1975, there was no choice. The then prime minister, Ted Heath took us in to what we were told was a trading partnership in which we were told excise duty, to name but one thing, would be expected to be the same in all member states. The public believed that duty on alcohol, tobacco and fuel would be reduced to the same level as other countries in Europe ( that was never going to happen but that wasn't a big issue anyway, merely a red herring).
To be fair, a trading partnership is a good thing but we are now a long way from that and much closer to a federal Europe in which we would not be one of the big fish.
 
FIFTY

FIFTY

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3,100
whereskeith said:
Remain in the EU will only temporarily be business as usual, The EU continues on a set path to a United federation state of Europe.
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There are checks and balances built in to the EU to ensure a Federation does not happen.

Here are some coherant arguments for and against the EU from my personal experience:

I attended a mock EU negotiations at the European Parliament and Commission during my time at university. While extremely boring (we were tasked to debate roaming tarrifs) it was quite an eye opener. It did make me less pro-EU as i experienced the burocracy first hand eating prime steak frites in their cafe at a subsidised rate of 3 euros. While the commission tries to be as transparent as possible with live streaming everything online the reality is that all of the deals are done in the back corridors during the intermission between sessions...

But ultimately while we as young students were easily corrupted by big business and decided not to abolish roaming charges on mobile phones. In reality is the MEPs and representatives within the Commission are not so easily swayed and listeneded to their constituents to ban roaming charges which we all enjoy today... Ultimately like government it is a grass roots organisation it has it's pros and cons.
 
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Oneball

Oneball

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11,117
jasst said:
A very valid point, and on that basis you can blame the state we are now in firmly at the door of the remain camp for totally failing to highlight the pitfalls of leaving.
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Yep, nail, head.

Corbyn dithered and said nothing, the pro-euro MPs failed to describe tangible benefits of the EU to the man in the street, (they didn’t even say you may lose visa free travel) and big business tried to upset neither side and said nothing. The likes of BMW, Honda, Nissan, HSBC, DB, Corus, Colas, DBS, Zara et al, should have made a reasoned argument for staying.

When Scotland voted to remain part of a United Kingdom our politicians should have taken that confidence in our country forward and made us a leader in Europe on a par with France and Germany instead of snipping from the sidelines.

I’m a liberal with a small l but I think the worst thing that has happened to British politics was the death of John Smith. Without him we lost John Major’s impetus on Europe, we lost someone who I believe could have driven social change for the first time since the immediate post war years and we got Tony Blair.
 
FIFTY

FIFTY

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3,100
Gogs253 said:
Not quite, in 1975, there was no choice. The then prime minister, Ted Heath took us in to what we were told was a trading partnership in which we were told excise duty, to name but one thing, would be expected to be the same in all member states. The public believed that duty on alcohol, tobacco and fuel would be reduced to the same level as other countries in Europe ( that was never going to happen but that wasn't a big issue anyway, merely a red herring).
To be fair, a trading partnership is a good thing but we are now a long way from that and much closer to a federal Europe in which we would not be one of the big fish.
Click to expand...

To be fair i did get it wrong but there was a referendum on whether or not to stay in the EEC and remain won by over 60%

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum

Also the EEC then EC and now EU had to change because of the changing face of international politics and economics... No more dollar standard or cold war these days mate!
 
dunnah01

dunnah01

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I'm tired of a this nonsense argument about pros & cons. If we exclude those that voted for Brexit as an opportunity to be mildly racist around immigration then Remain would have won by a country mile. Hang your heads in shame and come clean whoever you are.
 
Gogs253

Gogs253

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132
FIFTY said:
To be fair i did get it wrong but there was a referendum on whether or not to stay in the EEC and remain won by over 60%

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum

Also the EEC then EC and now EU had to change because of the changing face of international politics and economics... No more dollar standard or cold war these days mate!
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I agree with much of what you have said but the EEC we joined is a very different to the animal we are/were members of and while the changes were agreed within the EU club, they fundamentally changed the way sovereign states could operate. It certainly is a cosy club for those involved.
 
allandwf

allandwf

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10,994
So will the other elected MPs deliver what was voted for, ie, leave? I don't see how the bickering and infighting changes anything, no matter what way you would like to happen .
 
JonW

JonW

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3,262
I’m not young or old. I’m middle aged and am experienced enough in life to have learnt that it’s easier to change something for the better when you are part of the inside crew, rather than being an outsider.

I respect my elders and the sacrifices they made. However, the days when any country has total control of its borders, its laws, and its rights to trade freely with whoever they want are gone. The world is fundamentally different and any desire to get back what we once had is (IMO) sentimental and deluded.

I voted remain because I believed it was the best long term option for my kids, their kids, and for the country as a whole. I still do. This doesn’t mean the EU is perfect, but that I felt leaving is the wrong answer. As a result I now resent how my parents and others of their generation have removed the rights of my kids to participate fully in Europe as members of the club, rather than as resented outsiders who are perceived as arrogant.

I also believe, from various briefings I’ve received as part of my job, or from other people whose expertise I respect, that there is a genuine risk that a no deal Brexit will cost lives (literally due to blood shortages and loss of critical medical resources) and will destroy businesses that have been built up over decades. As such, I think a no deal Brexit is the wrong answer.

Clearly, no one actually know exactly how it will all end up, and I’m hopeful that the UK will eventually find a way through it. I’m also lucky enough that on a personal level I don’t need to worry about how me or my family will be able to feed ourselves, clothe ourselves, pay for our homes, and drive fantastic V8 Italian cars!

However, I have yet to hear anyone explain a coherent rationale for why this is the sensible, intelligent thing to do...

Finally, I think that all the politicians that have led us to this point ought to be ashamed of themselves, and worry for how they will be judged in terms of their legacy. This possibly includes Theresa May, but the list is much much longer and includes many, many, Leavers and Remainers....
 
allandwf

allandwf

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10,994
I agree with most of the above. It is the politicians, almost to the individual, who should be ashamed. They are/were in it totally for their own agenda from all parties. And they he ones that resigned should never work in politics again. I would happily sweep the lot of them away.
 
Nibby

Nibby

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2,089
I don't see why David Cameron gets a bad rep in all this.
He went to EU for a bit of flexibility, they told him to foxtrot oscar in which made UKIP more vocal and split the Tory vote even more. A referendum whether to stay in the EU was gaining momentum, so I think it was inevitable it would take place. Cameron voted to Remain in the EU, Remain lost so he quit.
Also when the word racist is used I associate it with people like that scumbug shouting at Raheem Sterling at the weekend not people concerned that the demographics of their town changed in a short space of time.
 
Wattie

Wattie

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8,640
allandwf said:
I agree with most of the above. It is the politicians, almost to the individual, who should be ashamed. They are/were in it totally for their own agenda from all parties. And they he ones that resigned should never work in politics again. I would happily sweep the lot of them away.
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Further, a little thought occurred to me.
Politicians in both the Us and Uk have spent the last decade exporting democracy around the world- mainly through regime change and war. Casualties in the millions.

Yet in both the Us and Uk it would appear that they (and those on the wrong side of the vote) cannot accept the result of democratically held elections.

If any moral high ground ever existed it’s well and truly gone now.
 
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