Paul1982
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How much better I'd the GS gearbox map compared to the 06 CC map? I have a friend who said he'd fine tune my engine now the exhaust is flowing better but he can flash the gearbox Map aswel if beneficial?
New Kevlar Clutch
- Thread starter Paul1982
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How much better I'd the GS gearbox map compared to the 06 CC map? I have a friend who said he'd fine tune my engine now the exhaust is flowing better but he can flash the gearbox Map aswel if beneficial?
Paul1982
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Yes please! Thanks Paul.
Incidentally, do clutches normally need to be run in and if so for how long?
Incidentally, do clutches normally need to be run in and if so for how long?
alexarmendano
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It would be nice to see it taking off from stand. That's the real deal. I also had my clutch replaced a couple of years ago without the scan tool (problems with connecting cables) and since it is a self learning gearbox it picked it up quickly. The trick is leave the F1 sensor untouched and have the clutch/flywheel balanced prior installation (at least is what my mechanic told me). Later, he got the SD3 working back again and adjusted the PIS and KISS.
This thread is really interesting. It could change things in our Maserati world
CraigWaterman11
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Alex I think the problem with leaving the F1 sensor untouched is that you would also have to leave the Thrust bearing in place, and I would not advise someone to change a clutch out of their car without changing the F1 sensor and the thrust beaing. Here is a photo that shows you where the magnet and the arm attaches to the thrust bearing:
..........which leads me to another question Paul did you replace the throw-out bearing and the F1 position sensor when you changed the clutch? I didn't see a photo of that when you first posted or in the last photos, you just posted.
Spigot bearing............. In the photo Paul you posted above with just the fly wheel already installed it looked like the old Spigot bearing is still in the crank. Maybe the lighting is off in the photo but it looks like an old one to me. It's a $30 part and this is another thing I don't know of anyone working on these cars would of purposely left in without changing it. This is what it should look like if it were new:
I'm sorry to say this once again. The Gearbox does not self learn. Voicey already addressed the early 360's which I didn't think to mention because the NCRs are different. These cars can give you the new clutch position, which you then write into the NCR to restart the clutch wear algorithm. Alex. You absolutely can run the car with all the old settings. I'm not sure for how long before the car decides it doesn't like it but it can be done. You can change the clutch out tomorrow swap a brand new one in and run it under all the previous settings of the old clutch you took out of it.
If anyone can point out to me in any service manual that states the NCR or gear box re-writes it's own KISS point or clutch settings, whether the Duo-select Quat, the 4200/GranSport I will stand corrected.
If that was the trade secret the Porsche mechanic was speaking about, that's not a trade secret at all, that's a not following the service manual mechanic.
Which again, leaving the Spigot bearing in. It will run, just like if you just remove the bell housing and leave the F1 sensor and thrust bearing. But the only people I know that would do that is someone that doesn't work on these cars, and someone willing to gamble with both the customer's vehicle and the customer's money.
Though I definitely already question the "trade secret", I wonder if I take and put a Kevlar clutch in a car under all the old settings. Then I continue to try and run it without adjusting it. Can I burn the flywheel up enough, or glaze the friction discs enough so that is seems to slip like an OEM clutch so it will work? I don't know I've never tried it but here is what one of the Master Mechanics said that I sometimes consult with on ML:
"Pretty interesting...I wonder what magic was performed to get it to work without a proper diagnostic tool? Its been my experience, after several years of racing cars that exotic clutch materials are not as always great as they seem...I saw guys run kevlar or carbon-kevlar clutches and one thing they all had in common was nasty take up.. They were simply like an on-off switch.. It worked ok on the track, however the car was a ***** to move around slowly in the pits. These cars are fairly heavy and you need that slip to make them pleasant to drive...The by-product is the wear on the clutch...I`ll stick with OE until someone comes out with something better...Jason"
..........which leads me to another question Paul did you replace the throw-out bearing and the F1 position sensor when you changed the clutch? I didn't see a photo of that when you first posted or in the last photos, you just posted.
Spigot bearing............. In the photo Paul you posted above with just the fly wheel already installed it looked like the old Spigot bearing is still in the crank. Maybe the lighting is off in the photo but it looks like an old one to me. It's a $30 part and this is another thing I don't know of anyone working on these cars would of purposely left in without changing it. This is what it should look like if it were new:
I'm sorry to say this once again. The Gearbox does not self learn. Voicey already addressed the early 360's which I didn't think to mention because the NCRs are different. These cars can give you the new clutch position, which you then write into the NCR to restart the clutch wear algorithm. Alex. You absolutely can run the car with all the old settings. I'm not sure for how long before the car decides it doesn't like it but it can be done. You can change the clutch out tomorrow swap a brand new one in and run it under all the previous settings of the old clutch you took out of it.
If anyone can point out to me in any service manual that states the NCR or gear box re-writes it's own KISS point or clutch settings, whether the Duo-select Quat, the 4200/GranSport I will stand corrected.
If that was the trade secret the Porsche mechanic was speaking about, that's not a trade secret at all, that's a not following the service manual mechanic.
Which again, leaving the Spigot bearing in. It will run, just like if you just remove the bell housing and leave the F1 sensor and thrust bearing. But the only people I know that would do that is someone that doesn't work on these cars, and someone willing to gamble with both the customer's vehicle and the customer's money.
Though I definitely already question the "trade secret", I wonder if I take and put a Kevlar clutch in a car under all the old settings. Then I continue to try and run it without adjusting it. Can I burn the flywheel up enough, or glaze the friction discs enough so that is seems to slip like an OEM clutch so it will work? I don't know I've never tried it but here is what one of the Master Mechanics said that I sometimes consult with on ML:
"Pretty interesting...I wonder what magic was performed to get it to work without a proper diagnostic tool? Its been my experience, after several years of racing cars that exotic clutch materials are not as always great as they seem...I saw guys run kevlar or carbon-kevlar clutches and one thing they all had in common was nasty take up.. They were simply like an on-off switch.. It worked ok on the track, however the car was a ***** to move around slowly in the pits. These cars are fairly heavy and you need that slip to make them pleasant to drive...The by-product is the wear on the clutch...I`ll stick with OE until someone comes out with something better...Jason"
voicey
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I was meaning to post this last night - the only other non-diagnostic route I could think of to get this working would be to change the properties of the friction materials.
alexarmendano
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I think the problem with leaving the F1 sensor untouched is that you would also have to leave the Thrust bearing in place, and I would not advise someone to change a clutch out of their car without changing the F1 sensor and the thrust beaing. Here is a photo that shows you where the magnet and the arm attaches to the thrust bearing:
..........which leads me to another question did you replace the throw-out bearing and the F1 position sensor when you changed the clutch? I didn't see a photo of that when you first posted or in the last photos, you just posted.
Spigot bearing............. In the photo you posted above with just the fly wheel already installed it looked like the old Spigot bearing still in the crank. Maybe the lighting is off in the photo but it looks like an old one to me. It's a $30 part and this is another thing I don't know of anyone working on these cars would of purposely left in without changing it. This is what it should look like if it were new:
I'm sorry to say this once again. The Gearbox does not self learn. Voicey already addressed the early 360's which I didn't think to mention because the NCRs are different. These cars can give you the new clutch position, which you then write into the NCR to restart the clutch wear algorithm. Alex. You absolutely can run the car with all the old settings. I'm not sure for how long before the car decides it doesn't like it but it can be done. You can change the clutch out tomorrow swap a brand new one in and run it under all the previous settings of the old clutch you took out of it.
If anyone can point out to me in any service manual that states the NCR or gear box re-writes it's own KISS point or clutch settings, whether the Duo-select Quat, the 4200/GranSport I will stand corrected.
If that was the trade secret the Porsche mechanic was speaking about, that's not a trade secret at all, that's a not following the service manual mechanic.
Which again, leaving the Spigot bearing in. It will run, just like if you just remove the bell housing and leave the F1 sensor and thrust bearing. But the only people I know that would do that is someone that doesn't work on these cars, and someone willing to gamble with both the customer's vehicle and the customer's money.
Though I definitely already question the "trade secret", I wonder if I take and put a Kevlar clutch in a car under all the old settings. Then I continue to try and run it without adjusting it. Can I burn the flywheel up enough, or glaze the friction discs enough so that is seems to slip like an OEM clutch so it will work? I don't know I've never tried it but here is what one of the Master Mechanics said that I sometimes consult with on ML:
"Pretty interesting...I wonder what magic was performed to get it to work without a proper diagnostic tool? Its been my experience, after several years of racing cars that exotic clutch materials are not as always great as they seem...I saw guys run kevlar or carbon-kevlar clutches and one thing they all had in common was nasty take up.. They were simply like an on-off switch.. It worked ok on the track, however the car was a ***** to move around slowly in the pits. These cars are fairly heavy and you need that slip to make them pleasant to drive...The by-product is the wear on the clutch...I`ll stick with OE until someone comes out with something better...Jason"
Craig, yes, I have the thrust bearing replaced. How he did it I have no clue. Unfortunately, you know mechanics, they never show all the cards. I can ask him again what he did but basically what I recall he explained to me is what I've just said.
Paul1982
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Morning Gents,
Updates... Yes spriog bearing was changed alone with new thrust bearing. I didn't change the f1 position sender as it was changed a few years ago and was advised that the newer oem ones don't need changing.
Right... I can confirm the car was put back to my previous settings only. The car drives fine but on hill starts I feel a slight slip sometimes and now when I get to around 4500rpm under load it slips in every gear.
So clearly the pis and kiss are not currently correct for this car. Sorry I haven't done a video but I picked the car up with my daughter and don't want to video while driving with her in it.
So voicey I will def be in touch again to arrange something
Updates... Yes spriog bearing was changed alone with new thrust bearing. I didn't change the f1 position sender as it was changed a few years ago and was advised that the newer oem ones don't need changing.
Right... I can confirm the car was put back to my previous settings only. The car drives fine but on hill starts I feel a slight slip sometimes and now when I get to around 4500rpm under load it slips in every gear.
So clearly the pis and kiss are not currently correct for this car. Sorry I haven't done a video but I picked the car up with my daughter and don't want to video while driving with her in it.
So voicey I will def be in touch again to arrange something
Paul1982
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Maserati Cambiocorsa F1 with Kevlar Clutch: http://youtu.be/_dfcu57hS2U
ChrisQP09
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Sounds fine, what is the flashing light on dash, seatbelt?
miket
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Let's hope that all's well when Voicey has had a look at the settings for you, you may have started something here! That's why there may be a little scepticism, there has been no success previously I for one hope you've nailed it because it should be an improvement for all!!
Paul1982
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Thanks Miket, when I started this I was naive and knew nothing of the problems the Americans have had so have been sh#tting myself a bit but MD Clutches and my mechanic said in theory there would be no reason why it couldn't.
But clearly it has as it engages all the gears correctly just needs fine tuning now.
But clearly it has as it engages all the gears correctly just needs fine tuning now.
Paul1982
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I've also thrown another spanner in the works this morning as my mapping friend is trying to obtain the GS engine and gearbox map for me to put in - this will alter things and Aldous said I'd need to do that first as he'd need to reset/tweek things again after so its pointless doing it first.
If anyone has the stock GS bin files (maps) for the gearbox and the ecu please pm me as it would be a great help
Hoping to achieve 435+bhp with the gran sport gearbox map and the Kevlar clutch it will be a fab car
If anyone has the stock GS bin files (maps) for the gearbox and the ecu please pm me as it would be a great help
Hoping to achieve 435+bhp with the gran sport gearbox map and the Kevlar clutch it will be a fab car
mjheathcote
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This is useful if you haven't seen it before.
