F1 Actuator Rebuilding Service

[CraigWaterman11]

No offense to you, but it seems like you are speaking with obscure problems in this thread and it seems a lot like advertisement. For instance, you stated, you are working on " a better pin before installation of a double-lipped seal". Far as I know these actuators don't have a single seal on a pin. They have two seals on each end cap. There are two actuators in this unit, a larger actuator that controls horizontal or gear engagement movement, a small actuator that controls clocking or selecting movement. The pressure is held in each chamber by brass colored end caps. There is an outer cap seal which is either an AS568A-025 or -019, and the inner seal that's -114 and -111. The inner seal actually seats around a wiper seal. I'm just confused because if you machine the end cap, again which there are four, you cannot just address the outer seal with out addressing the inner seal. You could machine all pressure caps but that's not what you stated . So you are going to machine all four of the pressure caps? Let me know if you want me to post photos here for the forum to see. That way at least everyone can understand what you are trying to alter. How did you data log deteriorated seals? Are you talking about gear change calculation grids on each of the cars?

Additionally, I spoke to Voicey not three weeks ago, and I could of sworn he told me actuator failures in Ferraris aren't as bad as in Maseratis. But it seems like you are saying you've had outbreak since 1999 with them. I didn't know that, even Maserati actuators, don't seem to have a huge number of failures. But I guess that would be good for business if that were true. My hydraulic background comes from working on excavators, roll offs, etc., even in commercial applications I find they've yet to solve the issue of seals blowing, or needing to be replaced. Seems like the commercial industry thinks it's normal maintenance for hydraulic actuators. I've rebuilt at least 15 ton cylinders if not much bigger. So you have been working on these since 1999, why only three actuators though?

I'm sorry I don't mean any offense I'm just not a snake oil type of guy. Again in order to offer a better than OEM quality actuator, you'd need a customer to run your actuator for well over the miles a normal one could take. Even on simulation, you'd have to run the simulator for weeks to achieve that, but that's still not factoring in the conditions of the vehicle like heat, or contaminated hydraulic fluid. Additionally, I've never run across any actuator in any commercial machine, that wasn't designed for seals to be replaced. Actuators are non-interference moving parts. The only interference is on the seals. I work on excavators, and heavy equipement, in some of the harshest terrains. Millions of pounds are put into these machines and yet we are still replacing seals. I've not seen a seal yet that can counter contaminates in the fluid amongst other things, like allowing a machine to sit for long periods of time without use, seals don't just fail because of use, they fail from not use as well. They dry rot crack, and fall apart. Personally, I'm taking a different approach because I don't think their design is flawed at all. In all actuality, the F1 actuator really isn't anything special, they merely adapted known hydraulic technology for a shifting mechanism. I could be incorrect but honestly you could take a new OEM actuator warranty it for years, and it still not fail. I am going to test a few military spec. seals that are expensive compared to what normal seals would cost to see how they pan out. They not only have better wear resistance characteristics, they have great marks in chemical resistance, hot/cold, etc.etc.

I guess the only problem I'm encountering isn't whether the seals are better than OEM, on paper it's a given. In order to test it to be better under normal ownership conditions, you'd need the mileage, time (these cars sit for long periods of time), climate, and road conditions. In my mind you'd need to run one of these rebuilds well over a decade to prove this. Again, in my mind simulation is important, but I need to see that actuator sit under a car for months and months of non-use be run hard only to sit again.

 

[Clsports&performance]

Hi Craig. This will be my last post on the subject as you seem to be intimating that I am advertising (no more than you are) my products here. Just so you are aware, Ive been a Ferrari/Maserati master tech for twenty years and have a business repairing these cars. I also know Aldous extremely well so you should really speak to him regarding my credentials before doubting my abilities.
To summarise with a few answers to your questions;
1. There are many recorded failures on F-car actuators. Also Lamborghini
2. Yes I've been working on them since '99.
3. Not three failures.... Three rebuilds still in use...different thing...
Good luck with your project...

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Hi Craig. This will be my last post on the subject as you seem to be intimating that I am advertising (no more than you are) my products here. Just so you are aware, Ive been a Ferrari/Maserati master tech for twenty years and have a business repairing these cars. I also know Aldous extremely well so you should really speak to him regarding my credentials before doubting my abilities.
To summarise with a few answers to your questions;
1. There are many recorded failures on F-car actuators. Also Lamborghini
2. Yes I've been working on them since '99.
3. Not three failures.... Three rebuilds still in use...different thing...
Good luck with your project...

Actually, no I don't really care how much you advertise, it doesn't bother me. What does bother me, is what you are writing because it really honestly doesn't make sense especially if you have taken these apart. You being a Master tech doesn't mean you know hydraulics. I have two on Maserati Life, one that has 25 years in and contacts me about problems when he has them with the F1 systems. I didn't doubt your abilities I don't even know you. Additionally as far as I know in the U.S. with all our ASE certs, there's not one that covers hydraulics or F1 systems, must be different in the UK.

What's more irritating than anything is you're talking in riddles. I noticed you didn't want to address anything that I specifically wrote with very pointed questions about what you did, especially when I asked about what you stated you are modifying, so why write in the first place,.....advertising correct? Why not just start your own thread that way, remember now, you responded on my thread not the other way around. I don't care that you are advertising, I do care you responded on my thread and now you are offended when I want you to expound on what you wrote. I don't deal in snake oil period, I deal in science.

You stating there are many recorded failures really means nothing, put a number to it, how many have YOU personally seen, and which cars are you speaking about? It means about as much as you stating there are usually three modes of failures in actuators, without elboration, just like this mystical pin with the seal you're speaking about. Sorry brother, I can only suggest you don't come on a public forum on another person's thread if you don't want to address specific questions about what you are doing. I'm sorry you feel the way you do, it's not your abilities I'm doubting, it's what you are saying you are doing to the actuators themselves. But you know there is a way to prove this as well. If you want I can purchase one from you, reverse engineer it and post it on the forum whether you made the changes you are saying you are making if you'd like. My money doesn't come from just working on exotics, it comes from diesels and a bunch of other things I work on. My dad was a Master Mechanic. I started doing this at a very young age. One thing I cannot stand in my field is when people sell snake oil, or make a problem like only NASA can fix it, they are worse than Donald Trump to me. Sorry you're offended, but I bust my a#$ working on stuff everyday. I'm the same way in real life as well, you can ask Chris I sit down and eat with him almost every time he comes to the U.S., I don't change to type on a keyboard. It's just the way I am.

 

[Clsports&performance]

Wow! That's pretty insulting. I know I said that was my last post, but ok, I'll bite. One last time. I don't know what made you so defensive, but let me just say this. Anyone can look up seals on an online catalogue. Google is your friend. You keep banging on about snake oil etc, but quite frankly I've been working on Ferrari and Maserati for two decades yet no-one within my company or any of the other marque specialists I've spoken to have never heard of you, or your expertise within the field of actuator repair. I'm not re-inventing the wheel. Logic-controlled hydraulic systems aren't complicated to design, or repair. There are various hydraulic repair companies in the uk who will re-seal an actuator.All I wanted to offer here was an alternative view, backed with data, as to why the failures are occurring, and although my commercial offering will be in the marketplace in three months, I really don't need to show you intimate photos of our companies solution. As for you buying one? Yes, when they have been signed off I'll happily sell you as many as you need.I may have a business repairing these cars but ultimately I'm an enthusiast, just like you guys, and I've given out teichnical information for many years on many forums, both as an expert and a sponsor. Craig, I'll close by saying that if you ever need any help with your seal replacement project, please feel free to contact me.

 

[CatmanV2]

Acting as a voice of (admittedly biased) moderation:

I know Craig. Personally. I don't think he was being overly defensive. We see far too much BS from people promising the earth. This is a forum populated by a higher than typical percentage of technically educated and skilled people. We tend to expect people to justify their claims. Most can't.

Craig has a reputation on here for providing reliable, well researched technical advice which helps the typical forum member solve their problems. Not just here, but on the other forums as well. My *experience* is that he's a skilled an competent engineer who's created several excellent technical guides *and* shipped product to people globally as well as being accepted by Formula Dynamics who supply some of his kit.

You, on the other hand, have 5 posts which are, bluntly, light on the detail that 'we' would like to see. I am not qualified, perhaps, to make the perfect *technical* judgement, but I know who I would be *likely* to trust.

Having said that I fully understand that you want to protect your IP and technical detail, and that Craig does not is, perhaps, his failing. However, to date, not only has he been able to impress people with way more engineering expertise than I, but he can *also* impart enough detail to enable anyone to follow his lead. As you say, it's not re-inventing the wheel. It's just less trouble, sometimes, to 'pay' someone else.

C

 

[CraigWaterman11]

So I guess he's not going to answer the question? Just seems odd to me. Suddenly after 25 years as a Tech he wants to wear his heart on his sleeve on the forum. Doesn't make any sense. I appreciate it Chris, it's true I don't mind being transparent about things. But we also all know, just because I show someone the internal parts of an actuator, doesn't mean they are going to start tearing apart a $2000-3000 USD used part to figure out how to rebuild it.

I wrote a lot last night and erased it. All of this is distracting, and useless. I still don't know of any seals on any pins inside this actuator. I'm thinking he doesn't either. For the record, lets be very clear about something. They don't teach ANY Ferrari or Maserati Tech how to rebuild hydraulic actuators period. It's outside their field of expertise, which is why the thread is titled what it is. They barely teach them how to diagnose and fix F1 problems by replacing parts. As far as him hearing about me, does he not realize we are on two different continents and no one over here knows him either? The only thing that's "wow" about this whole thing is he thinks everyone is an idiot but him. Really bad mistake on his part I think.

 

[CatmanV2]

I speak as I find. You have trust capital on the board. If anyone else wants to chip in, I'm sure they will. Hardly backwards in coming forwards

C

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Chris you know I definitely appreciate it but to be honest, and unbiased, a case could be made I've never worked on any of your cars in the UK. You've guys merely read my postings, and appreciate my work. So that could easily be discounted, because I am in the U.S. my clients are here. So let me just share one post from ML. I really don't want this to turn into someone thinking you're playing favorites or anyone for that matter. I know you're not, you've always been a straight up person since I've known you, nevertheless:

http://www.maseratilife.com/forums/granturismo/85681-new-owner-2009-gts.html

 

[CatmanV2]

Oh indeed. Don't forget that people here have your tie rods and ball joints.....

C

 

[2b1ask1]

I've been keeping quiet as is may way but I will add that Craig got out of bed crazy early one Sunday morning to help me through an issue getting my old tie rods out, as I'm sure he would say "Just helping a brother out." For me the help was priceless as at that moment I had a partially dismantled Maserati sitting in an alleyway on axle stands, a cut tie rod that was not going to be going back on and frankly was at a loss how I was going to resolve it. emails, PM's, text messages and a long phone call over the time zones had me welding not one but two nuts on the cut end so I could put my really big nut gun on to shift it, this combined with the heat of the welding got me out of the mire. Probably the single biggest pickle I'd got myself into on any car. Help like that is priceless and beyond rare.

As a result of this incident I was prompted to have the tie rod sockets made so nobody need go through that again!

Thank you once more my friend

 

[philw696]

Nice one Newton.
I'm full of admiration for what Craig has done on these cars and I too stand by him as a fellow brother in the Automotive profession.
Well done Craig.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

I really appreciate it Newton, and Phil. I'm pretty sure Newton you would have done the same for me. It's what these forums are all about. It also wasn't that big of a deal Newton, you did do all of the work, I merely made suggestions on how to get it unstuck. Additionally, in that moment even with all the time I put into the rear tie rod replacement you found an issue I didn't. It was an issue many others had as well because you've had many people contact you for it.

I appreciate you're guys support. I look forward to getting a better alternative for Actuators out as well.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

How to find the size of an O ring

Okay guys, quick update for the thread. I received the machined part back today, with the seals I wanted to try out. So I completely rebuilt both actuators, smaller/larger, then I actually tested it all pneumatically. I just set up an air compressor with a controlling device for the banjo bolt holes. Far as I could tell it worked flawlessly. I am going to center it, and since I don't have a car that needs it. If I get the time I'm going to put it in the GS. Lol....maybe I can start writing the GS off for tax purposes as a testing tool!

BTW.......maybe if someone googles how to find the size of an O ring this thread will come up. I know they use cones, and another tool I can not think of the name of now to do it, pretty sure that's what you'll find if you google it.

But I've always measured O rings with a dial or digital caliper, feel like you shouldn't waste money if you don't have to. So here's how you'd do it if you guys just want to use an old school way with some simple math.

You obviously take it's thickness by closing the caliper hands onto the O ring, write that down. Next, take and stretch out the O ring against the caliper hands that measure inside diameters. Should be the reverse of how you measured thickness, and write that down.

Now in order to find your O ring inside diameter or ID, you are going to take that number above here you found after stretching that O ring out with the caliper hands, multiply that by (2)two. After doing so take that number divide it by 3.1416, most will recognize that number from high school. That is the inside diameter ID of your O ring. In this case this is how I found the inside diameter of the 6 pairs or a total of 12 seals inside both the smaller/larger actuator.

So, you have the ID and Thickness of the O ring. Now you need the outside diameter or OD. Simply take the thickness multiply that by (2) two, and add that to the ID you just figured out. Then, go cross-reference that to the tons of data bases that have O ring dimensions.

Sorry guys I just couldn't resist doing that, you have to have a sense of humor for the forums.

 

[philw696]

Nice to see your progressing well on with it mate.

 

[conaero]

Benny needs a new actuator and am sure he would be up for a test as Guinea Pig. That way he might even contribute something positive to life!

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Benny needs a new actuator and am sure he would be up for a test as Guinea Pig. That way he might even contribute something positive to life!

Awww, surely he contributes a lot in his respective life field, however, that's not a bad idea? I'm waiting for a new end cap as this one was broke. I'm waiting on the machinist for the end cap now. Benny and I will definitely be talking. There's no better way to R&D one of these than to run it in a vehicle. If he needs it right away maybe he can just transfer his end cap to it. It's really nothing more than a dust cap. It's not designed to hold fluid, actually the opposite, it's a paper gasket design so that you can see when those end seals are leaking through. I have to center the Actuator yet, but I will PM him in a bit.

 

[MAF260]

If you get nowhere with Benny I am a willing Guinea Pig. My car is currently at Autoshield having (another) new clutch fitted.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Guys trying to keep the thread up to date. I have the actuator together and centered. I'm waiting for word from your side of the pond on something. I guess what I was hoping for is to run diagnostics on the actuator myself to keep any issues in front of me. As much as I don't mind helping out it's hard for me to pull data from across the pond unless I have someone there running the diagnostics giving me feedback and readings that I need for this. It kind of complicated things when I had a client drop off a F350 diesel that hasn't run since 2009. He wants new heads, arp head studs, egr cooler, and oil cooler installed so I've been busy.

Alternatively, I did have time for this short post on accumulators: http://craig-waterman.com/?p=584

I will keep you guys in the loop

 

[philw696]

Excellent work as ever Craig and professionally presented.
Wish we were on the same part of the planet as I would love to be working alongside you.
Phil.

 

[rs48635]

following this post with renewed interest, as my QP is still lost in France. Transmission failure light illuminated and will not select any gear, stuck in neutral. Also does not start unless battery is disconnected then re-connected.