F1 Actuator Rebuilding Service

[CraigWaterman11]

Hey guys, just wanted to see if there was any interest in F1 Actuator Rebuilding Service across the pond. I'm in the end stages of rebuilding a specific actuator that I personally took off of a car. The actuators I find usually won't select or clock up or down like they are supposed to. After about 100 photos, and a machine shop that I helped with his GTS F1. I think I have it licked. This might be pre-mature, but I'm feeling confident I will have it exactly like I want. The first thing was having him machine the hardened steel pin that literally jams and snaps under the high hydraulic pressure. That is already taken care of. It's working 100%. Then I decided I don't like the black plastic "selespeed" dust cover at the end of the actuator. He's beginning that process today. He will be CNCing aluminum end caps with "F1" ("E-Gear" for Lambos) in them instead of "Selespeed. We really wanted to do the Marquis like the "Trident" and Prancing horse but I don't know if that's going to go over well. Essentially, I'm thinking it's better to stay away from legal on this one. If you just want the CNC'd end cap I think with multiple people buying he can get them at $125, or at least around there. I'm purchasing the first one for $300 because of set up, etc, etc.

I've been working on this project for a few months now, and I'm pretty intent on spending the time and money to get it right. To be honest with the conversations I've seen by GTE on ML, and then the phone call I've had with them, I'm not much for the company. I think they charge $2600 to rebuild them. I'm shooting for rebuilding them for what you can get a used Actuator for right about $1900 with new Cnc'd end caps, new seals, and machined pin. GTE might not like me much when I'm done, but you guys know I own these cars so I don't really care much about that.

Thoughts?

 

[conaero]

BennyD has a duff actuator so he would be a candidate to test.

My worry is, nobody has managed to refurbish these unit with any longevity and ultimately they fail.

Not saying yours will but I hope it proves successful and yes, they would sell in droves. Maybe we could set up a UK firm to do ours with your technique and pay you for your setup up cost or something?

Exciting stuff though, well done.

When you doing the clutches

 

[CraigWaterman11]

BennyD has a duff actuator so he would be a candidate to test.

My worry is, nobody has managed to refurbish these unit with any longevity and ultimately they fail.

Not saying yours will but I hope it proves successful and yes, they would sell in droves. Maybe we could set up a UK firm to do ours with your technique and pay you for your setup up cost or something?

Exciting stuff though, well done.

When you doing the clutches

It's funny because I think when they are rebuilt, for instance, like the Ferrari ones. They don't replace the pin that usually snaps in the Maseratis. The seals are worn out no longer holding the correct hydraulic pressure. Hydraulic seals are a whole other thread, but I have no intention of using cheap seals.

Briefly though maybe I should say, hydraulic seals, the ones in these now are Nitrile, easily distinguished by their black color, are important because if you use the wrong type of seal it doesn't have the same heat, tear, or wear resistance. Additionally, they also are designed to resist different chemicals they come into contact with. So I can rebuild an Actuator use the wrong seals/ size, and it might last a year and fail. There are no metal to metal contact in actuators except for the cam pins, ironically that is what snaps in the Maserati Actuators. The contact is all on the seals. So if they fail, besides again the cam pin mentioned, nothing is damaged but the seals. So in sum, if the rebuilt actuators are failing, unless they did replace the cam pin with a cheap alternative, it's because the seals used were inferior to those that were OEM to begin with. Whether that's because of the size of the seal, or the material they used. Some times a seal will be superior in every way other than than how it flexes. When the temperature drops to -5 like for Viton, it's easily disfigured.

So I guess what I am saying in sum is that like everything the proper R&D has to be done. Right now I've looked through tons of data on seals. I'm settling more on a quality Nitrile seal similar to OEM only because I realize why they are using it in the actuators. I might beable to use a seal like Viton down in Texas and it work better than Nitrile, but bring it to the NorthEast and have a temperature drop and it fails. I think it's smart to compare all of the extremes for every type of seal, obviously centered around it's application in both hydraulic and transmission fluid, and pick that one.

Additionally, I'm already working on a UK satellite person now, the person just doesn't know it yet. But I'm sure you guys will know his reputation if he decides to do so. I just buttoning this up before I create the service manual for him.

As far as clutches, lol, back burner for now.

 

[CatmanV2]

How heavy are they, Craig? i.e. is this a candidate for Catman Shipping Ltd?

C

 

[Zep]

I spoke to someone else recently (who your satellite person would know well) who is also setting up to rebuild actuators in the UK. They are a few months from offering a service and has successfully rebuilt an F430 actuator in the past (still working I understand). So you might be in a race to the line. Also going to be doing TCU reprogramming with Challenge Stradale program I'm told. I'm in the queue to get that working on a 4200/GS gearbox.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Chris they aren't too heavy too be honest, maybe 10lbs. Additionally, I don't mind competition at all. That's what drives the prices down so that they become affordable. I know the overhead and I know what it takes to rebuild them. We will see how inexpensive we can get them before the competition gives up. Chances are they will give up before I do, I've been in that race before. I'm usually hated by the competition, loved by the clients. I'm good with both.

 

[CatmanV2]

Good man

Where are we going for dinner (this date is inviolate in my calendar this time!)

C

 

[conaero]

I have a broken actuator in my garage, donated to the cause if it helps.

It's off Zags Spyder.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Good man

Where are we going for dinner (this date is inviolate in my calendar this time!)

C

Well I'm thinking it's up to your brother, you let me know what you'd like to eat, we will go there. I have this thing for mexican food and apple ales, but you are flying the distance so I will respectfully go wherever you'd like.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

I have a broken actuator in my garage, donated to the cause if it helps.

It's off Zags Spyder.

That would be great. I'm almost certain I know what's wrong with it already, broken cam pin, won't clock up or down. It was the same thing with the one I am rebuilding from an 04' Coupe and the same thing with my Spyder from my first car. I don't mind paying the shipping to get it here obviously. Should I PM you my address and Paypal you the money for shipping?

 

[adam01]

Get Catman ti bring axross

 

[Wack61]

Get Catman ti bring axross

Good idea, he'll be ok going out, coming back he looks like a himalayan mule

 

[CatmanV2]

Good idea, he'll be ok going out, coming back he looks like a himalayan mule

To be fair 'OK' is probably stretching it

C

 

[CatmanV2]

Well I'm thinking it's up to your brother, you let me know what you'd like to eat, we will go there. I have this thing for mexican food and apple ales, but you are flying the distance so I will respectfully go wherever you'd like.

Heh. The cider I'll pass on but Mexican is good

C

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Heh. The cider I'll pass on but Mexican is good

C

I really think you have to have some Angry Orchard, or Redd's. I've tried others but they don't taste that well. Mexican it is then!

 

[CatmanV2]

I really think you have to have some Angry Orchard, or Redd's. I've tried others but they don't taste that well. Mexican it is then!

Chap, your entire country has got the beer thing sorted, but you really have no idea about cider, I'm afraid

C

 

[Clsports&performance]

There are a few issues with these. I've personally rebuilt three so far. The seal material is indeed critical, however the other problem is heat related. Thermal loading and subsequent expansion is causing the premature wear. So far I've put two years work into a solution. This involves some machine work to construct a better pin before installation of a double-lipped seal, the shape of which is similar in design to that you would find in a traditional master cylinder. The three cars I did are all still going, but it was more a "patch" than a fix. The modified units will all be run on a hydraulic jig before leaving. The jig is designed but is currently 12 weeks away..

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Glad to see you guys are adding new sponsors. I appreciate the feedback. I guess what I'm wondering is since theses actuators can put 20,000 miles and many more on them. The one I'm currently rebuilding had 48,000 miles on it, and the seals weren't the true issue. That being stated so how do we unbiasedly state what we are doing is better? I do understand what your trying to state here, I follow the logic. In my mind you should actually, if you rebuilt the actuator with identical seals of OEM quality, be getting at least the standard for the OEM actuator, theoretically correct? Seems like that's not people's opinion across the pond though. I've never tried GTE but there is a Rebuilder in Seattle that's been doing it for years without issue. They don't alter the seal seats at all, they changed the seals being used. Again I do appreciate the response.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Also sorry, I didn't address the jig you're building, I was writing on my phone before dinner above. To be honest I didn't have any intention of building something separate to test with. I have a brand new F1 system sitting in my spare bedroom. I'm using the extension cable listed in the service manual to test the actuator out of the car by hooking the brand new system up to a vehicle via extension cable. This will not only tell me whether it's functioning as it should be, it will give me the specific engagement/selection values of how the actuator tests so I will know if it's border line out of spec after rebuild, as well as showing whether it successfully tests with self learn. This would be important data to send to a client you sell these units to. Initally, after rebuild I planned to used air to test the individual actions before hooking it up to the actual F1 sytem.

I saw GTE's jig and as far as I can tell it just shows actuation in the shifting. If doesn't show whether the engagement/selection values are in spec for an F1 system. All they are doing is running a computerized program that is firing the pressurized fluid from the solenoids. I actually have listed what solenoids have to fire to engage and select all the specific gears on my website, also I show the exact ports of the actuator they fire into. You could do it pneumatically, or hydraulically, this is the easy part in my mind. Just my two cents, and good luck with the project.

 

[Clsports&performance]

Hi Craig. Thanks for your input. Most failures I've seen since 1999 have followed the same three modes of failure. The specialist garage I owned out in Cyprus saw many actuator failures, and after some data logging with Komarts it was plain to see accelerated wear and why this was occurring. The two prototypes currently running seem to be functioning straight out of the box, but obviously if they are to be offered commercially you have to stand by your product and it should be of merchantable quality, in this case, exceeding O.E. The jig is not just to "try out" actuation, as you correctly state, it is simple to just hook it up to a standalone system to do that. We are running cycle tests to simulate useage, fully automated. We currently have one of the two actuators on our own F360, but quite frankly, trying to emulate years of use so that we can safely offer an improved, quality actuator with a long warranty would take years!