CLOSED Brexit Poll

[wink]

The European Parliament, which makes EU legislation, is formed of elected MEPs. The European Commission, fabled haunt of 'faceless eurocrats' is no different from the UK civil service - it proposes legislation at the behest of the politicians. 95% of the EU legislation that has been passed was voted for by our UK MEPs. I recently asked a Leave supporter to name one 'undemocratic' law that he personally felt impacted on him. He came up with low-energy lightbulbs! Not only was that legislation supported by the UK, but why would it make our country a better place if we wasted 90% more energy than necessary on lighting?
We've been in the EU for over 40 years and we've benefited from it. I remember voting against joining in 1975 because I accepted the argument then about national sovereignty. But I don't buy the argument now, and I don't feel we're any less democratic. I think some people feel antipathetic towards the EU because it's the perfect 'They' who we can blame for all ills. There's always someone else to blame. IMO we need more co-operation with our neighbours, not less, and I value my right as an EU citizen to travel and work freely in all EU countries.

 

[rossyl]

I recently asked a Leave supporter to name one 'undemocratic' law that he personally felt impacted on him. He came up with low-energy lightbulbs! Not only was that legislation supported by the UK, but why would it make our country a better place if we wasted 90% more energy than necessary on lighting?
.

Also if we did Leave, does anyone think we could suddenly get non low energy lightbulbs? We have a carbon quota to meet.

 

[CatmanV2]

The European Parliament, which makes EU legislation, is formed of elected MEPs. The European Commission, fabled haunt of 'faceless eurocrats' is no different from the UK civil service - it proposes legislation at the behest of the politicians. 95% of the EU legislation that has been passed was voted for by our UK MEPs. .

Indeed. But not *only* our elected MEP's
The other aspect is the claim that "we'd still have to comply with EU law" Well as far as I understand it, a company that wishes to trade with the EU will need to make sure it's products comply with EU law, but (again as I understand it) the vast majority of our companies do not trade with the EU, but still need to comply with their laws. Not (note) making the argument that all these laws are bad, but again it's (at the very least perceived) lack of options.

I think Matt has the right of it. It appears to be boiling down to a trade off between increased sovereignty (read choice / options) vs some kind of economic impact.

C

 

[wink]

Most of our trade is with other EU countries. If you make a product that sells in any EU country, it's much easier to design it to meet EU legislation, and then you can freely sell it in the entire market. It's not a burden - it makes it simpler to design products to one set of rules than to a dozen different ones.

 

[CatmanV2]

Most of our trade is with other EU countries. .

I suspect it's rather more complex than that:

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/OverseasTradeStatistics/Pages/EU_and_Non-EU_Data.aspx
Non-EU exports April 2016 £13bn
EU-exports April 2016 £12bn

The proportion of total exports to the EU was 48 per cent in April 2016. Over the past 18 months, this has ranged from 38 per cent to 48 per cent. The proportion of total imports from the EU was 47 per cent in April 2016. Over the same period, this has ranged between 47 per cent and 55 per cent.

So in fact over the last 18 months (on a month by month basis, and in strictly monetary terms) EU export has never been greater than Non-EU export. I guess that's a simplistic definition of 'trade' but if we're going to start talking about import vs export balance, we actually import a lot more from the EU than we export. It would seem at least plausible in the event of Brexit that some companies in the EU would wish to examine the possibility of continuing to do business with us.

Here archived from the ONS, the data indicates that Non-EU exports has grown faster than EU exports:
http://webarchive.nationalarchives....union-to-uk-trade-and-investment-/sty-eu.html

....the stronger export growth to non-EU countries has resulted in the proportion of UK exports destined for the EU falling from 54.8% in 1999 to 44.6% in 2014

I can't find the data right now, but I have heard (maybe untrue) that the vast majority of companies in the UK don't trade with the EU.

C

 

[m1980k]

The link between sovereignty and controlling our destiny is weaker than many people think. We could eject ourselves from the EU but we would then have far less influence in the world.

 

[CatmanV2]

The link between sovereignty and controlling our destiny is weaker than many people think. We could eject ourselves from the EU but we would then have far less influence in the world.

That rather sounds like an opinion. I'm not sure I can follow any causal link but accept that
1) It may be true
2) You're almost certainly correct about the link. Unless we elect Kim Jong Un, we simply need to negotiate with other people.

C

 

[m1980k]

I can't find the data right now, but I have heard (maybe untrue) that the vast majority of companies in the UK don't trade with the EU.

C

But trade with non-EU countries will still be governed by EU negotiated agreements. And who will have more bargaining power in negotiations with China? The EU or just the UK by itself?

And anyway, why would we leave the EU? What is the actual benefit?!

 

[CatmanV2]

But trade with non-EU countries will still be governed by EU negotiated agreements. And who will have more bargaining power in negotiations with China? The EU or just the UK by itself?

And anyway, why would we leave the EU? What is the actual benefit?!

Why will trade with non-EU countries continue to be governed by EU negotiated agreements? They are *now*, but is there data that this is beneficial (overall) to the UK? And I'm not sure

C

 

[m1980k]

Why will trade with non-EU countries continue to be governed by EU negotiated agreements? They are *now*, but is there data that this is beneficial (overall) to the UK? And I'm not sure

C

OK, grammatical error. International trade is currently governed by EU negotiated deals. Britain alone would have less negotiating power. Smaller economy, less negotiating power.

And to me, this is all irrelevant because there is no benefit to be derived from leaving the EU.

 

[CatmanV2]

OK, grammatical error. International trade is currently governed by EU negotiated deals. Britain alone would have less negotiating power. Smaller economy, less negotiating power.

As one of my favourite phrases 'It's probably more complicated than that' but I can see the idea.

C

 

[steamer]

Like the economic arguement its not all about now. What happens when / if the other proposed 7 countires join the EU ? Our MEP votes are even more diluted and by countries with a very different outlook to ours.

 

[Contigo]

I reckon the result will be leave and for the better I say. The EU is a sinking ship!

 

[Trev Latter]

I tend to agree will Phil. If the UK doesn't leave, how long before France or Holland pull out and then we get dragged down with the demise of the EU as it stands now. If we're already out, we have a bit of a head start on the others. Yes we'll take a financial hit as a country, but if/when the EU fails, how much bigger will the hit be then? my guess would be much worse. One thing is fairly certain and that is that it going to change whether in or out.

 

[highlander]

One thing is fairly certain and that is that it going to change whether in or out.

never a truer word Trev. I'm still probably undecided but if the question was " would I vote to join now if we were not in already" is probably followed with a pretty clear "no" answer............so maybe I'm more of an outy than an inny than I thought

 

[conaero]

I reckon the result will be leave and for the better I say. The EU is a sinking ship!

Although I am firmly an OUT voter I see it being a REMAIN at about a 55/45 voting split.

Lets revisit this and see how wrong I was in a couple of weeks

 

[daverichardson]

I agree with Conaero, but I will still be voting out.
I saw 'high lights' if you can call it that of last nights 'debate'
Very poor, they were out to get Boris at any cost (I am no fan btw) and this is from Amber Rudd who relies on good fortune for an energy strategy for the country. Amber and Nicola what a pair!!!! (Just my opinion don't you know)

 

[Contigo]

A change is as good as a rest!!!

 

[D Walker]

After listening to Milliband on radio 2 on my journey home this afternoon my mind is made up.....

 

[MrMickS]

I've just voted. I'll see you on the other side