Brexit Deal

MaserCoupe

MaserCoupe

Member
Messages
564
MarkMas said:
As I say, the way it could work for the UK is:
(a) not to worry about any legal (EU or otherwise) or illegal immigration into the Republic of Ireland, because the UK has no control over this.
(b) because a people-proof border between the Republic and NI is impractical, there is no point trying to enforce this with border posts and lorry checks, when anyone can just stroll across a field
(c) so don't even try to make it impossible for illegal immigrants to enter NI from the Republic
(d) but make it hard for them to work, rent, lie low, etc - NI is very heavily policed, and this should be very possible;
(e) deter with 1 year in jail followed by deportation
(f) strongly control the people border between NI and the rest of the UK (basically planes and ferries, so fairly easy)
(g) plus UK identity cards, random immigration status stops (illegals get 1 year in jail followed by deportation)
(h) plus a more sensible asylum system, that supports genuine refugees but rapidly processes fake refugees (this is hard)
(i) plus a straightforward and welcoming legal immigration system that encourages working visits, longer-stay would-be immigrants, and newly naturalised citizens from all over the world, not just white Europeans.
- One of my main objections to the EU is that it is fundamentally a racist enclave that facilitates trade and movement amongst (mainly white) Europeans, and thus discriminates against Asians and Africans.
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Are you sure about the EU being a fundamentally racist enclave that facilitates trade and movement amongst (mainly white) Europeans?? It trades with Asia (ASEAN) 70 odd billion last year and Africa..in the multiple of Billions 25billion last year.I’ve not met a Greek or a Cypriot EU member yet that considers themselves as ‘white European’....:)
 
Oneball

Oneball

Member
Messages
11,141
MarkMas said:
As I say, the way it could work for the UK is:
(a) not to worry about any legal (EU or otherwise) or illegal immigration into the Republic of Ireland, because the UK has no control over this.
(b) because a people-proof border between the Republic and NI is impractical, there is no point trying to enforce this with border posts and lorry checks, when anyone can just stroll across a field
(c) so don't even try to make it impossible for illegal immigrants to enter NI from the Republic
(d) but make it hard for them to work, rent, lie low, etc - NI is very heavily policed, and this should be very possible;
(e) deter with 1 year in jail followed by deportation
(f) strongly control the people border between NI and the rest of the UK (basically planes and ferries, so fairly easy)
(g) plus UK identity cards, random immigration status stops (illegals get 1 year in jail followed by deportation)
(h) plus a more sensible asylum system, that supports genuine refugees but rapidly processes fake refugees (this is hard)
(i) plus a straightforward and welcoming legal immigration system that encourages working visits, longer-stay would-be immigrants, and newly naturalised citizens from all over the world, not just white Europeans.
- One of my main objections to the EU is that it is fundamentally a racist enclave that facilitates trade and movement amongst (mainly white) Europeans, and thus discriminates against Asians and Africans.
Click to expand...

By that definition the Africa Free Trade Zone is also racist as is NAFTA and the Pacific Trade Alliance and ASEAN.

You've also completely missed trade which is a far bigger issue, it may sound minor but what happens when you leave Newry, drive 25 mins to Dundalk buy a packet of fags and drive back again?
 
MarkMas

MarkMas

Chief pedant
Messages
9,040
MaserCoupe said:
Are you sure about the EU being a fundamentally racist enclave that facilitates trade and movement amongst (mainly white) Europeans?? It trades with Asia (ASEAN) 70 odd billion last year and Africa..in the multiple of Billions 25billion last year.I’ve not met a Greek or a Cypriot EU member yet that considers themselves as ‘white European’....:)
Click to expand...

Yes of course there is world-wide EU trade. The EU (as I said) facilitates trade ... amongst ... Europeans. For example, relatively rich (white) EU farmers can sell their products tariff-free across the EU, whereas relatively poor African and Asian farmers pay tariffs typically of 14% to sell into the EU.

I have not asked any Greeks or Cypriots if they consider themselves 'white European' (although I suspect they do, especially when a boatload of African migrants arrives).

It continues to amaze me that Remainers accuse Brexiters of being nationalists and xenophobes, when the whole point of the EU is to create a single united nation of predominantly white Christians with 'shared values' to exclude 'those people out there'. Someone the other day was moaning to me about the way the Americans and the Chinese had their own science research agendas, and how science should be global, yet literally one minute later he was telling me that the UK was crazy to leave the EU as it was so important that Europeans should stick together within the EU's Horizon2020 research funding enclave. Similarly many of UK Remainer friends are delighted by the idea that the UK should be excluded from Galileo (on which we have spent £1Bn) on the grounds that if you are not in the union you should be actively excluded from everything it does, but they label any form of UK protectionism as unacceptable nationalism. Likewise it seems odd to me that so many Scottish Nationalists absolutely hate the idea of union with England, but absolutely love the idea of union with the rest of the EU. It seems like UK nationalism is evil, but EU 'nationalism' is just fine.
 
Phil the Brit

Phil the Brit

Member
Messages
1,499
From the House of Commons today.
Tory back benchers saying in response to there being possible food shortages after Brexit and I quote, "let them eat chips then".
It is this kind of disrespect for the people who elected them that makes me sure I will vote for some non descript party in the next General Election.
 
MarkMas

MarkMas

Chief pedant
Messages
9,040
Phil the Brit said:
How much of what you have written is covered by the withdrawal agreement? I again, genuinely do not know. I am concerned by every man and his dog just walking into our country by this route without a by your leave by anyone.
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That's pretty much the problem with any land border (ask Mr Trump), but that was true anyway EU or no EU, whether you were a French millionaire, Romanian beggar or a Syrian refugee, if you could get to the Republic, you could (and can) walk to NI. But, post-EU the French millionaire and the Romanian beggar can still fly freely to Dublin and take the walk north, but will then have to show some papers (or be caught as a stowaway) before they can get to England. The Syrian refugee will find it much harder to get to Dublin than Calais.

Leaving the EU does not solve this land border problem, and never could, unless we followed leaving with building a 310-mile 'hard' wall.

The withdrawal agreement has lots to say about the UK having to be part of the Customs Union forever to avoid a 'hard' border, but that is really just about trade. It has little to say about a 'hard' or 'soft' border with regard to people.
 
MarkMas

MarkMas

Chief pedant
Messages
9,040
Phil the Brit said:
So, inevitably there needs to be a control at all ports/airports in Southern Ireland to stop them getting into there. The problem is that they are legally allowed there so where would this control happen. There also needs to be a check done on all lorries coming in, or, it this already happening?
I am genuinly confused about the mechanics of how this is supposed to happen. Please help me understand.
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There are already extensive checks and controls at all ports and airports in the Republic, looking at tariffs, contraband and people. They must allow free passage of any EU goods, as long as they are not contraband (drugs, etc) and they must ensure that EU tariffs are being paid on all non-EU goods. For people, as the Republic is not in the Schengen Agreement, they can and do check passports etc. But they must allow free passage to just about any EU citizen, and if a refugee or illegal immigrant turns up then they are supposed to deal with it. But it is not a big problem, because stowing away to get from mainland Europe to Ireland is not as easy as getting to England from around Calais. And none of this will change in any way if the UK leave the EU. Presumably slightly more dubious EU citizens and 'illegals' will cross into NI, and will have to be caught at the docks in Belfast, rather than on the long border. The good part is anyone thought to have crossed from the Republic should be able to be sent back to the Republic - THAT might become a genuine source of tension.
 
Oneball

Oneball

Member
Messages
11,141
MarkMas said:
That's pretty much the problem with any land border (ask Mr Trump), but that was true anyway EU or no EU, whether you were a French millionaire, Romanian beggar or a Syrian refugee, if you could get to the Republic, you could (and can) walk to NI. But, post-EU the French millionaire and the Romanian beggar can still fly freely to Dublin and take the walk north, but will then have to show some papers (or be caught as a stowaway) before they can get to England. The Syrian refugee will find it much harder to get to Dublin than Calais.

Leaving the EU does not solve this land border problem, and never could, unless we followed leaving with building a 310-mile 'hard' wall.

The withdrawal agreement has lots to say about the UK having to be part of the Customs Union forever to avoid a 'hard' border, but that is really just about trade. It has little to say about a 'hard' or 'soft' border with regard to people.
Click to expand...

The Republic of Ireland isn’t part of Schengen so you still have to go through immigration and show papers to get there from another EU country, except the U.K.

The only immigration free entry into the Republic is from the U.K. and vice versa, it has nothing to do with the EU, it’s an agreement between U.K. and Rep of Ireland.
 
CatmanV2

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
48,963
Phil the Brit said:
From the House of Commons today.
Tory back benchers saying in response to there being possible food shortages after Brexit and I quote, "let them eat chips then".
It is this kind of disrespect for the people who elected them that makes me sure I will vote for some non descript party in the next General Election.
Click to expand...

Source for that?

C
 
Wattie

Wattie

Member
Messages
8,640
Interesting day.
UK Mp’s now apparently know what they want.
Europe says there’s no way change to the legal agreement.

Happy ending seems “pie in the sky”.
 
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