Brexit Deal

[MaserCoupe]

How about the towns that had thousands of unskilled workers turn up from Eastern Europe competing with the local unskilled workers in the early 2000's and undercutting them? Making sure the hourly rate was the bare minimum.
Being in the EU might be an advantage to some people but FOM had a negative impact on a lot of poor communities.

The same unskilled labour that paid taxes and filled jobs and paid on average £3k in taxes per annum over and above what they took out. The same migrant doing jobs that weren’t being filled initially? I think you need to blame the employers for what they offer as pay not the migrant who did the job. Foreigners/migrants or whatever term you care to call and frame them are not the issue or the fundamental issues of our country nor the problems of each individual persons life. They are just an easy target and a deflection tactic for propaganda.
If you think immigration will end after our departure then you are sadly mistaken. The government has already stated as much. Wherever and with whomever we trade with, will also continue to attract and demand an open door for workers. That will continue to be the trade off....

 

[Rwc13]

Interesting news interview with Ford Europe chairman Steven Armstrong on Sky News re tariffs and the future.... Very sobering indeed.

What would you expect him to say? He’s just another expressing an opinion based on a corporate/personal agenda perspective. None of it’s fact, it’s opinion with a whole bunch of variables in it that could change depending on a range of short and longer term factors that are at present unknown.

 

[MaserCoupe]

What would you expect him to say? He’s just another expressing an opinion based on a corporate/personal agenda perspective. None of it’s fact, it’s opinion with a whole bunch of variables in it that could change depending on a range of short and longer term factors that are at present unknown.

Sobering though don’t you think? or am I just not believing enough. Why wouldn’t I listen to the people actually doing the jobs and know what they are talking about....

 

[Nibby]

The same unskilled labour that paid taxes and filled jobs and paid on average £3k in taxes per annum over and above what they took out. The same migrant doing jobs that weren’t being filled initially? I think you need to blame the employers for what they offer as pay not the migrant who did the job. Foreigners/migrants or whatever term you care to call and frame them are not the issue or the fundamental issues of our country nor the problems of each individual persons life. They are just an easy target and a deflection tactic for propaganda.
If you think immigration will end after our departure then you are sadly mistaken. The government has already stated so much.

Woo there!!
Don't play the racist card.
The employers had a cheaper alternative when they rocked up and were rubbing their hands. Without them they would've had to dip their hands in their pocket a bit more!
Unfortunately racism is alive and well in Eastern Europe as seen when England played football the other night.

 

[MaserCoupe]

Woo there!!
Don't play the racist card.
The employers had a cheaper alternative when they rocked up and were rubbing their hands. Without them they would've had to dip their hands in their pocket a bit more!
Unfortunately racism is alive and well in Eastern Europe as seen when England played football the other night.

No race card played, yep racism alive and well everywhere including the UK. Just look at the obsessive Tommy Robinson and UKIP with islamaphobia, then anti Semitic behaviour of some in Labour even the Tories very own Boris flirting with it and JRM’s skirt with the German overtly racist far right party. Don’t forget that angel Farage. So yes it’s all there simmering just below the surface. PS why would you bring up immigration the very thing that leave campaign weaponised? in your previous post?

 

[empzb]

Woo there!!
Don't play the racist card.
The employers had a cheaper alternative when they rocked up and were rubbing their hands. Without them they would've had to dip their hands in their pocket a bit more!
Unfortunately racism is alive and well in Eastern Europe as seen when England played football the other night.

Price rules the market. Regardless of EU or not, if they are willing to do the jobs for minimum they should. My nan has carers mostly from eastern Europe come in twice a day. They do 12 hour shifts for minimum wage having to do a **** job, would many brits graft like this?

I don't agree with those paid cash in hand and not declaring, but the Bob the builder also does that so that's where the market went.

You can also argue about the jobs created since being an EU member. Who are these pesky foreign companies coming here with their jobs.

 

[Rwc13]

I don’t get why people quote opinions as facts, and even worse why people repeat what are clearly opinions as if they are facts. For every so-called “fact” there are countless potential alternative “facts”. The only true fact about Brexit is we don’t know what will result and neither does the EU or all the brilliant economists because there are just too many variables that could and will change.

In my view we should respect the vote and get on with it. And guess what, like most things in life, it will neither be as good nor as bad as the optimists and doomongers respectively would have it.

And it’s sll very well saying what about the 16m, but the remainers want a result that completely ignores the views of the 17m. Whereas Brexit has been discussed and even offered in a variety of flavours to compromise somewhat on the preferences of remainers, but it appears no flavours but “remaincurrent” are acceptable.

The other point that Wattie has made repeatedly but nobody has it seems appreciated is that “no deal” could end up with the hard Irish border that everybody is trying to avoid. Except that the EU has already said they won’t let it - they will find accommodations that remove the need for a hard border in a no deal scenario. So why insist on it in the Withdrawal Agreement where we should be working together much more collaboratively. It’s just bollox. It’s just Juncker and Barnier trying to prove a point that will ultimately be to the EU’s detriment I believe.

I voted remain, and I’m still pretty neutral believe it or not - I can see the pros and cons of both sides. But one thing that I believe more strongly than ever is that the EU needs to be reformed massively to remove the abusive and corrupt practices and downsize it to be what most countries signed up for and many are now starting to see again as the end game, a common market trade facilitation relationship, not a political monster.

 

[empzb]

I don’t get why people quote opinions as facts, and even worse why people repeat what are clearly opinions as if they are facts. For every so-called “fact” there are countless potential alternative “facts”. The only true fact about Brexit is we don’t know what will result and neither does the EU or all the brilliant economists because there are just too many variables that could and will change.

In my view we should respect the vote and get on with it. And guess what, like most things in life, it will neither be as good nor as bad as the optimists and doomongers respectively would have it.

And it’s sll very well saying what about the 16m, but the remainers want a result that completely ignores the views of the 17m. Whereas Brexit has been discussed and even offered in a variety of flavours to compromise somewhat on the preferences of remainers, but it appears no flavours but “remaincurrent” are acceptable.

The other point that Wattie has made repeatedly but nobody has it seems appreciated is that “no deal” could end up with the hard Irish border that everybody is trying to avoid. Except that the EU has already said they won’t let it - they will find accommodations that remove the need for a hard border in a no deal scenario. So why insist on it in the Withdrawal Agreement where we should be working together much more collaboratively. It’s just bollox. It’s just Juncker and Barnier trying to prove a point that will ultimately be to the EU’s detriment I believe.

I voted remain, and I’m still pretty neutral believe it or not - I can see the pros and cons of both sides. But one thing that I believe more strongly than ever is that the EU needs to be reformed massively to remove the abusive and corrupt practices and downsize it to be what most countries signed up for and many are now starting to see again as the end game, a common market trade facilitation relationship, not a political monster.

Question on the Irish border. The EU wont put one up. The UK wont.

We voted (not me, the people) to take back control of our borders. So why wouldn't we put up a border? Or will Ireland be the best smuggling route.

Edit: doesn't wto also require a border control?

 

[Rwc13]

Sobering though don’t you think? or am I just not believing enough. Why wouldn’t I listen to the people actually doing the jobs and know what they are talking about....

Because, they will have an agenda driven by what they believe is best for them, corporate or personal, or both. It doesn’t make it truth or fact. You appear to like to ignore the “facts” you don’t like, eg the EU is a bust and corrupt political monster, but believe the facts that align with your own beliefs, eg Brexit will be a commercial disaster and make us all poorer. It’s called unconscious (or possibly conscious) bias

 

[Oneball]

Question on the Irish border. The EU wont put one up. The UK wont.

We voted (not me, the people) to take back control of our borders. So why wouldn't we put up a border? Or will Ireland be the best smuggling route.

Edit: doesn't wto also require a border control?

There’s some airy fairy language in the Good Friday agreement that can be interpreted as a commitment by all sides to allow freedom of movement between NI and the Republic. There’s no power of law behind this and it didn’t actually mention border controls specifically either.

If we went down the WTO route it says that all countries should be treated equally so if we have a hard border with China we must have one with Ireland. If we don’t another member of the WTO would have to bring a formal complaint against us with the WTO and go down a long process that may never amount to anything.

 

[MaserCoupe]

Because, they will have an agenda driven by what they believe is best for them, corporate or personal, or both. It doesn’t make it truth or fact. You appear to like to ignore the “facts” you don’t like, eg the EU is a bust and corrupt political monster, but believe the facts that align with your own beliefs, eg Brexit will be a commercial disaster and make us all poorer. It’s called unconscious (or possibly conscious) bias

So the agenda for workers in the plant?? The facts of losing jobs? Shall we ignore that? Or are they just collateral damage and it’s all ok.

 

[lifes2short]

bit of light relief for you chaps, this Brexit threat is something else

 

[Nibby]

No race card played, yep racism alive and well everywhere including the uk. Just look at the obsessive Tommy Robinson and UKIP with islamaphobia, then anti Semitic behaviour of some in Labour even the Tories ver own Boris flirting with it and JRM’s skirt with the German overtly racist far right party. Don’t forget that angel Farage. PS why would you bring up immigration the very thing that leave campaign weaponised in your previous post? Surely you don’t feel that way Nibby, surely you’ve got more than that?

Check out that toerag Tommy Robinson's Polish Neo-Nazi bodyguard.
Unfortunately racism is too common in Eastern Europe. As a whole this country is one of the most tolerent in the world, you only have to look at France where there is huge support for the Front National something that's never happened here thank God.
Going back to my original point it was the amount of workers that came here in a short space of time, no one can disagree this had a negative effect on the local low paid workers at the time.

 

[CatmanV2]

I don’t get why people quote opinions as facts, and even worse why people repeat what are clearly opinions as if they are facts.

Humans are really good at that It's a long term, evolved, survival trait (in my opinion. I could find some smart peoples' research that backs that has informed that opinion, and it's a fascinating field)

C

 

[Rwc13]

So the agenda for workers in the plant?? The facts of losing jobs? Shall we ignore that? Or are they just collateral damage and it’s all ok.

Sorry, did he announce something today? I must have missed it.

Or did he say “"If we were to get to a no-deal Brexit ... then we would have to take another long, hard look at the operations that we have in the UK," Ford's Europe Chairman Steven Armstrong told Sky News.

Which says nothing other than they’d take another hard long look. I’d expect every CEO of every company affected by Brexit to say similar. To not do so would be a dereliction of their duties to shareholders. But it doesn’t say anything. Another obtuse comment presented as if a decision has been made and confirmed. We’ve seen countless such statements made by industries over decades when they haven’t liked an economic or environmental change.

 

[Corranga]

Going back to my original point it was the amount of workers that came here in a short space of time, no one can disagree this had a negative effect on the local low paid workers at the time.

So we're looking at about 80k people a year from 2004.
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac....rnational-migration-flows-to-and-from-the-uk/
Yet unemployment rates didn't really rise all that much until 2008:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/unemployment/timeseries/mgsx/lms
and from 2015 unemployment rates have been at least back to where they were, or better, despite continuing population growth and continued migration.

It's a real problem....

 

[Wanderer]

The CTA trumps EU. Brits and Irish are not considered foreign to each other and neither are they subject to immigration control, leave or remain.

 

[Oneball]

The CTA doesn’t cover the trade in goods though.

 

[Nibby]

So we're looking at about 80k people a year from 2004.
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac....rnational-migration-flows-to-and-from-the-uk/
Yet unemployment rates didn't really rise all that much until 2008:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/unemployment/timeseries/mgsx/lms
and from 2015 unemployment rates have been at least back to where they were, or better, despite continuing population growth and continued migration.

It's a real problem....

Have you seen what they call employment in some instances these days? With working credits and the like, Zero-hours contract, oh yes loads of lucky workers to keep the unemployment figures down.

 

[Phil the Brit]

Woo there!!
Don't play the racist card.
The employers had a cheaper alternative when they rocked up and were rubbing their hands. Without them they would've had to dip their hands in their pocket a bit more!
Unfortunately racism is alive and well in Eastern Europe as seen when England played football the other night.

What happened at the football?