2023 F1 - Fantasy League
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zagatoes30
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I was trying to be more polite
Tallman
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There seems to be no end to the disgust of the Red Bull team on here. I must say the other teams are all so much better with Saints for Team bosses - and the other drivers all good men who don’t whine nor crash into any other drivers…what could be another factor - oh yes, Red Bull are in front
zagatoes30
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F1 is extremely competitive and all teams look to push the boundaries of the rules at one time or another, some are pulled up and reprimanded, others (like Ferrari) are allowed to hide their misdemeanours behind closed doors and occasionally teams are penalised.
But having lived for a significant number of years in the area where Red Bull, Mercedes & Jordan / Force India / Aston Martin are based you get to know quite a few employees and suppliers and stories, rumours etc. leak out and unfortunately Red Bulls name comes up more than most in what my Dad use to call sharp practises. My dislike for Red Bull is nothing new, I didn't like them even when they weren't winning, and IMO, their calling out of others for any perceived infringement on or off the track has got worse over the years and, once again IMO, their Sporting Director is normally in the thick of it and he is anything but Sporting.
Obviously these are my views but they have nothing to do with the fact that they are currently winning, there is no doubt their current car is phenomenally fast and it is for the others to catch up but this consistent whinging does my head even this weekend he was at it again commenting did the race director correctly make the right calls in calling Q3 over once it had been red flagged.
But having lived for a significant number of years in the area where Red Bull, Mercedes & Jordan / Force India / Aston Martin are based you get to know quite a few employees and suppliers and stories, rumours etc. leak out and unfortunately Red Bulls name comes up more than most in what my Dad use to call sharp practises. My dislike for Red Bull is nothing new, I didn't like them even when they weren't winning, and IMO, their calling out of others for any perceived infringement on or off the track has got worse over the years and, once again IMO, their Sporting Director is normally in the thick of it and he is anything but Sporting.
Obviously these are my views but they have nothing to do with the fact that they are currently winning, there is no doubt their current car is phenomenally fast and it is for the others to catch up but this consistent whinging does my head even this weekend he was at it again commenting did the race director correctly make the right calls in calling Q3 over once it had been red flagged.
Oneball
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Despite Red Bull being to all intents and purposes a British team, we don’t like them here, I think it’s an attitude thing. They’ve done nothing to mould Max into anything better after 8 years and they seem to have made Checo arsey. For a comparison it’ll be interesting to see what two seasons at Mercedes does for Russell’s crash and burn attitude to overtaking.There seems to be no end to the disgust of the Red Bull team on here. I must say the other teams are all so much better with Saints for Team bosses - and the other drivers all good men who don’t whine nor crash into any other drivers…what could be another factor - oh yes, Red Bull are in front
Tallman
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It seems to me that if you look through coloured glasses you wont see reality for what it is. You can give an angle to anything and the media love a villain - and they are more than happy to create one.
Oneball
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Works both ways.
I didn’t like Lewis to start with, his driving improved massively and that’s why he became the most successful F1 driver. Senna was horrific for crash and burn, so bad that that quote people band about was the complete opposite of what people use it for. Jackie Stewart was actually asking him why he was so dangerous! He was far more composed after 1990. Alonso similar. Max is brilliant but he should be better, he should’ve had those rough edges taken off him by now. He should’ve walked the 2021 season. Even if it’s not Horner’s place, Marko should’ve had some influence, he won Le Mans with Gijs V L for Pete’s sake.
It’s interesting how drivers can improve, look at Magnussen vs LeClerc yesterday. 4 years ago Kevin would’ve punted them both into the nearest tyre wall.
Guy
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I have worked closely with a number of F1 teams including Red Bull and Mercedes and I have no evidence to support such claims. They all push the boundaries searching for the fractions of percentages. I believe that all teams exploit the regulations as far as the can and occasionally they overstep (Gordon Murray's fan car is a great example) and over the years with various teams the designer that has been the very best has been Adrian Newey and Williams, McLaren and RBR have all enjoyed the benefits. Most things that go on in Historic Racing seem incomprehensible to me and are likely to be so due to lack of credible rigour from the organisations that manage it - not a criticism but probably a practicality. I personally believe great engineers like Newey need to be applauded and through the leadership of such talent, we have 1000s of people employed in F1 across the UK in teams and suppliers. It truly is an area where we are at the forefront of technology globally.
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DLax69
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Andretti expects mid-July decision on planned new F1 team
Michael Andretti said on Sunday he expects to know in mid-July whether he can enter Formula One with a new American team from 2025.
www.reuters.com
Guy
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I suspect like Haas, Andretti may still build their cars in the UK. I don't recall the detail but Ferrari even had/has UK based staffAndretti expects mid-July decision on planned new F1 team
Michael Andretti said on Sunday he expects to know in mid-July whether he can enter Formula One with a new American team from 2025.
Tallman
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My point is that there is so much garbage going about in the press/FB/Twitter from “F1 journalists” looking for clicks that this will greatly colour and exaggerate any non standard behaviour or non politically correct statements.Works both ways
It is up to us to sift through the garbage and extract the very small amount of facts that are hidden in these articles, commentaries and edited videos. Those that watch Sky F1 will be fed no end of small innuendos about Red Bull and Max whilst swooning on Mercedes, Russell, Hamilton & Norris. Ferrari are usually at the butt end as well. If you watch and read other publications a different picture appears.
Not all drivers are “smooth operators” and some of it is simply language or culture differences. We don’t hear a lot if the differences are so large that we disregard behaviour (Tsunoda) but someone who speaks better English and looks European gets served for anything that can be found. In continental Northern Europe people are direct. In the UK people are polite. There is a big difference in communication. Without going on a lecture too much, polite people regard direct people as rude and direct people regard polite people as friendly. Both are mischaracterisations.
To get to Max - his is direct, honest to a fault (Mexico 2019). He doesn’t play mind games, he is liked and respected in the garage and the team (and by the other drivers by the way). But he expects to know what is going to happen, he doesn’t like surprises (Brazil). We have plenty of “operators” (Fernando for example, Schumi) and mind game players (Lewis for example, many past champions). Few have been as honest and direct as Max (Mansell and Lauda come to mind). I like that.
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Tallman
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All teams and all designers try their luck - we had Merc with DAS recently for example. Most of these things get banned before they become too much of a problem but without trying you don’t make progress. Yes, Horner can get under his opponents’ and the opponent fans’ skin. Toto is pretty much the same though (if you don’t support Merc) and if others were fighting for the championship I’m sure they would be right up there too, as is their job.
Oneball
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I was only talking about how Max drives when in the car, nothing else.
Tallman
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Sorry then I got it totally wrong - but now I’m confused because Max has been driving extremely well the last seasons - so not sure what you’re referring to. Granted he was rough in his early days.
Oneball
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I could be wrong but I don’t think he’s had the challenge the last two years to show he’s changed.
Let’s see if he and Russell punt each other off next time they’re battling. If Max avoids the likely crash I’ll admit he’s becoming a proper multiple World Champion.
DLax69
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it's easy to love a winner; it's easy to hate a winner. Depends on whether you are on or off the bandwagon. Similarities in US football to Tom Brady/New England Patriots organization.
My problem is that, regardless of the event, I want it to be competitive. I love when the finish is in doubt, right up until the finish. And I think it's better for the sport - any sport. It's why the NFL, to stay on this example, runs its draft the way it does and has a hard cap for all teams regardless of market. Level the field as much as possible, and then let the people and the product do what they do.
My problem is that, regardless of the event, I want it to be competitive. I love when the finish is in doubt, right up until the finish. And I think it's better for the sport - any sport. It's why the NFL, to stay on this example, runs its draft the way it does and has a hard cap for all teams regardless of market. Level the field as much as possible, and then let the people and the product do what they do.
midlifecrisis
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Adrian Newey admits pushing rules to the limit in his book, they all do. When Ross Brawn concocted these rules, he hired a team to try and 'break/bend' them, Ross himself no stranger to interpreting the rules himself (double splitter).
Guy
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Fully agree re sport but a few years back I was told F1 is firstly a business, secondly a spectacle and occasionally, on some Sunday afternoons, some sport breaks out! The trouble is that the best drivers usually get the best kit and then we have the domination of a driver/team for a few years, most recently Ferrari, RBR, Merc and now RBR again.
Guy
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Some interesting analysis from Gary Anderson;
So, what is it about the RB19’s DRS that gives it this advantage?
Today, a team would look at DRS affecting the whole back of the car from the design stage. The under-floor, so critical with the current regulations, creates probably in excess of 50 per cent of the total downforce of the car, with the wings producing the remainder. The rear wing, then, is a crucial part of this.
When it comes to DRS, the more drag you can get rid of the better, but it is not about just dumping the drag from the rear wing when the DRS flap is open. It is far more effective to lose drag from the whole rear of the car: in other words the top wing, the beam wing and the diffuser.
There is no special trick to Red Bull’s DRS advantage, rather that they have a better car and have their rear end working together much better than their rivals. Even without DRS, the RB19 is fast in a straight line. It has more downforce than its rivals too, which means it is fast around corners and does not have as much drag as other cars.
If you look at the Mercedes in comparison, the rear is nervous which means they carry more rear wing to help them through the corners but this hampers their top speed down the straights. The Red Bull creates more downforce from its under-floor which in turn means they need less downforce from the rear wing – which itself is quite inefficient aerodynamically – which means they have a more efficient package to begin with.
As mentioned, it is not just about losing drag from the rear wing. If it was just the rear wing downforce that Red Bull were dumping, they would be dumping less drag because the rear wing is not producing as much downforce as the Mercedes.
This shows how crucial it is that the whole back of the car works together – and how well it does. In short: Red Bull have a very good understanding of how to make the rear of the car work as one. It appears as if their DRS is more effective, but really the whole car is more effective.
They are perhaps treating those three parts as individual elements. They seem to be struggling to get those elements to work in harmony, just like they have struggled to reproduce the downforce that the Red Bull under-floor produces. It is a lack of complete understanding and that is ultimately being shown in the standings and the half-a-second a lap deficit of the next best car over a race distance.
So, what is it about the RB19’s DRS that gives it this advantage?
Start with DRS – then build the rest of the car
The DRS is now a more intricate and integrated part of the car design than it used to be. When it was introduced in 2011 it was a simple tool to aid overtaking. The rear wing flap would open on the straight, drag would be lost, making a pass easier.Today, a team would look at DRS affecting the whole back of the car from the design stage. The under-floor, so critical with the current regulations, creates probably in excess of 50 per cent of the total downforce of the car, with the wings producing the remainder. The rear wing, then, is a crucial part of this.
When it comes to DRS, the more drag you can get rid of the better, but it is not about just dumping the drag from the rear wing when the DRS flap is open. It is far more effective to lose drag from the whole rear of the car: in other words the top wing, the beam wing and the diffuser.
How Red Bull’s genius package works
All three of these elements – top wing, beam wing and diffuser – need to work in harmony so that losing drag from one means you lose drag from them all, increasing top speed even further. The rear wing has to talk to the beam wing and the beam wing must talk to the under-floor. When DRS is opened the beam wing produces less downforce and changes its flow structure which then affects the under-floor which changes its flow structure. You lose downforce on the whole lot but more importantly you lose drag.There is no special trick to Red Bull’s DRS advantage, rather that they have a better car and have their rear end working together much better than their rivals. Even without DRS, the RB19 is fast in a straight line. It has more downforce than its rivals too, which means it is fast around corners and does not have as much drag as other cars.
If you look at the Mercedes in comparison, the rear is nervous which means they carry more rear wing to help them through the corners but this hampers their top speed down the straights. The Red Bull creates more downforce from its under-floor which in turn means they need less downforce from the rear wing – which itself is quite inefficient aerodynamically – which means they have a more efficient package to begin with.
As mentioned, it is not just about losing drag from the rear wing. If it was just the rear wing downforce that Red Bull were dumping, they would be dumping less drag because the rear wing is not producing as much downforce as the Mercedes.
This shows how crucial it is that the whole back of the car works together – and how well it does. In short: Red Bull have a very good understanding of how to make the rear of the car work as one. It appears as if their DRS is more effective, but really the whole car is more effective.
What can their rivals do?
The difficulty for other teams in catching up in this area is that they cannot just copy the RB19’s rear-end design. It is not even the cost cap that makes it difficult, it is more that they do not have the understanding of how the upper wing, beam wing and under-floor are interacting.They are perhaps treating those three parts as individual elements. They seem to be struggling to get those elements to work in harmony, just like they have struggled to reproduce the downforce that the Red Bull under-floor produces. It is a lack of complete understanding and that is ultimately being shown in the standings and the half-a-second a lap deficit of the next best car over a race distance.
midlifecrisis
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That's the key word in any form of racing, PACKAGE.