Are you worried yet.

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Phil the Brit

Phil the Brit

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MarkMas said:
I was being sarcastic (again). I really must stop doing that.

We have been informed by a"frontline surgeon/ key NHS employee and well informed member of this forum" (who tells us that he has been to Cambridge and has friends amongst the elite), that it "takes over 30 years to produce the staff" to operate a ventilator. So clearly, manufacturing, testing and delivering the ventilators will be useless, as they will be both too late and obsolete when the come into service in around 2050. We should just accept this truth that has been graciously bestowed upon us. Presumably, ordering them was just more Tory incompetence or a smokescreen, or maybe just an outright lie.

Those of us who lack this superior expertise have been clearly told that our "thoughts and actions are irrelevant", so I think we should all just shut up, and read and accept what our betters have to tell us.

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https://www.sportsmaserati.com/index.php?threads/are-you-worried-yet.30503/page-163#post-758674
https://www.sportsmaserati.com/index.php?threads/are-you-worried-yet.30503/page-204#post-760956
https://www.sportsmaserati.com/index.php?threads/are-you-worried-yet.30503/page-87#post-754838
https://www.sportsmaserati.com/index.php?threads/are-you-worried-yet.30503/page-208#post-761246
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Silvercat

Silvercat

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doodlebug said:
It usually takes over 5 years to develop a new ventilator but it hasn't stopped me and my colleagues from doing our best to produce something in 5 weeks. It maybe all in vain, but at least we are trying which is more than most armchair critiques are doing. Catch 22, if there are no staff to operate the ventilators, wtf is the point of making more ventilators.
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Spot on!....majority of the ventilators being built right now are to an existing Smith Medical design so no additional training required. So those who already operate these just need to operate more. As you say at least everyone is giving it their best shot rather than throwing rocks at the efforts.
We re in this mess because of successive govt failures ( both Labour and Tory) over the last 20 years failing to invest, now we need to dig ourselves out of it.
 
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Phil the Brit

Phil the Brit

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MarkMas said:
I was being sarcastic (again). I really must stop doing that.

We have been informed by a"frontline surgeon/ key NHS employee and well informed member of this forum" (who tells us that he has been to Cambridge and has friends amongst the elite), that it "takes over 30 years to produce the staff" to operate a ventilator. So clearly, manufacturing, testing and delivering the ventilators will be useless, as they will be both too late and obsolete when the come into service in around 2050. We should just accept this truth that has been graciously bestowed upon us. Presumably, ordering them was just more Tory incompetence or a smokescreen, or maybe just an outright lie.

Those of us who lack this superior expertise have been clearly told that our "thoughts and actions are irrelevant", so I think we should all just shut up, and read and accept what our betters have to tell us.

View attachment 67898

https://www.sportsmaserati.com/index.php?threads/are-you-worried-yet.30503/page-163#post-758674
https://www.sportsmaserati.com/index.php?threads/are-you-worried-yet.30503/page-204#post-760956
https://www.sportsmaserati.com/index.php?threads/are-you-worried-yet.30503/page-87#post-754838
https://www.sportsmaserati.com/index.php?threads/are-you-worried-yet.30503/page-208#post-761246
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thoughts and actions are irrelevant"...........Not true, we, the general public of the UK are a very powerful force via social media. The current government currently employ a whole team just monitoring certain keywords that appear on the internet. They have just re added their election campaign social media geru again for this very reason.
Everyone should make their thoughts known no matter what method is chosen.
Just my 2 cents.
 
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lozcb

lozcb

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philw696 said:
If we believe the Daily Mail Loz.
Totally agree with the roads here and the scenery ain't bad too :)
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Kudos to France Phil , still finding money to give to the regime that steals it all before it reaches the people its intended for ,
 
Silvercat

Silvercat

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iainw said:
It won’t be in vain - there are many levels of ventilator- from essentially simple bag and mask augmentation to CPAP Machines to full ventilators. It seems the planning is evolving significantly depending on the number available and number of staff available to man them. They are developing novel teams - which essentially will mean that one senior doctor will be responsible for multiple ventilated patients with a team of individuals with differing skill levels to support. It’s a system that hasn’t really ever been used before in the UK- but potential wartime conditions mean it will have to be. As you say 20% is better than no chance- but it would be logical to surmise that with less trained staff time per machine and per patient that this number will diminish. Thanks for your efforts- the engineers and other individuals behind the efforts have been amazing. There are definitely several sections of society standing out- it’s bringing out the best and worst in people.
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Well said Iain!
 
zagatoes30

zagatoes30

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Well still in lockdown here, not travelling more than 2kms from home unless for essentials and a bit of exercise. Still managing to keep working which is good but keeping the children amused is a challenge. Lots of little jobs being done in between and with a weekend coming more outside ones planned.

I now know of a few friends that have been directly impacted some worse than others and unfortunately one that has died, I don't care about who is lying or not just as long as we do anything we can to control this virus and minimise those that have to suffer. I have the deepest of respect for all front line workers who are keeping those infected as well as they can, for those who are helping to provide support in whatever way to their fellow friends and family and those who are keeping the supply chains open to support us all.

However I have little respect for companies who continue to push their business with things that are obviously not essential (no I do not want to buy a new Hi-Fi for my car and I care not if you are open or not), I know that some of these are doing it with good intentions for their staff but I think the only way we are going to get through this is if we hunker down and take the pain. The sooner we get this under control the sooner we can start to get back to reality.

Rant over
 
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Wack61

Wack61

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Silvercat said:
We re in this mess because of successive govt failures ( both Labour and Tory) over the last 20 years failing to invest, now we need to dig ourselves out of it.
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My one big hope when this is over is that government takes on board how much money they waste annually and do something about it , not holding my breath though
 
Silvercat

Silvercat

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Rwc13 said:
What office based public servants? Are you referring to me? Who said I was office based? Another incorrect judgement on your part. You know next to nothing about me and my life and career beyond I like cars (duh) red wine and I have a tractor. Whereas we know a lot about your education and career because you like to feel superior to the rest of us.
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Do yourself a favour..get over it and move on. Life is too short for fall outs.;)
 
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MarkMas

MarkMas

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iainw said:
For anyone that didn’t realise (I am sure that won’t be many) the 30 years meant that it would take 30 years for another staff member to be born and have long enough to get to a stage where he/she was trainable.

So funny what you pick out. It’s a little bit more complicated than that. There will be no ‘trainees’ many of the team will be totally untrained individuals helping to make up essential drugs and fetch and carry for the supply line. There isn’t enough resources to even spare trainees in some scenarios. The human race wouid literally be at an end if there were more of you. It disgusts me to have spent time with people like the nurses I have done today in tears facing things most grown men would run from - and people like you are acting like a spoilt argumentative child.
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It really is pointless trying to have a discussion with you, Iain; I must learn one day to give up.

You very clearly stated (twice) that in your 'expert' opinion making ventilators was pointless as it would take many years to train staff to operate them safely. Now that ventilators are being manufactured, you are desperately backpedalling from your absolute statements, pretending that you were making a general observation about how babies born today would need 30 years to become useful, which is just transparently irrelevant nonsense.

When I asked you, a few days ago, to give a more realistic (expert) opinion on training timetables, and the possibility of a team-based approach to overcome a lack of professional expertise, you ignored my question, and then a couple of days later set out a very similar narrative of team structures as if you were, once again, the expert 'in the know', without the grace to mention the apparent validity of my previous question. When I reminded you of it, you reverted to your normal cover-up strategies: (1) claiming (in increasingly patronising tones) to be a superior expert, (2) cynically invoking 'being in the presence of nurses' as some sort of cloak of nobility, (3) and crassly insulting people who ask questions or disagree with you.

Yes I am argumentative. But if you are incapable of addressing my arguments, and have to just resort to sophistry and insults, then you, sir, are being the spoilt child.
 
Wattie

Wattie

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iainw said:
There were no insults, just making an intelligent response and giving my opinions based on the evidence.
I have to say I agree with you re: this forum. I am sure there are individuals who agree with me but just stay silent. Especially those who this current situation has touched in some way. Those who reply seem to be in the main just wanting to be belligerent and give opinions for the sake of it. Don’t worry my day to day is full of meaningful contributions- I only post on here as I actually care what people think about this situation - and welcome informed discussion.
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I don’t believe you were trying to be insulting at all.
You and everyone else involved in health are working under incredible duress. I know I’m struggling to fathom the situations you are faced with each day, as it becomes a new normality.
I’m sure everyone here appreciates your work.
 
Phil the Brit

Phil the Brit

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MarkMas said:
It really is pointless trying to have a discussion with you, Iain; I must learn one day to give up.

You very clearly stated (twice) that in your 'expert' opinion making ventilators was pointless as it would take many years to train staff to operate them safely. Now that ventilators are being manufactured, you are desperately backpedalling from your absolute statements, pretending that you were making a general observation about how babies born today would need 30 years to become useful, which is just transparently irrelevant nonsense.

When I asked you, a few days ago, to give a more realistic (expert) opinion on training timetables, and the possibility of a team-based approach to overcome a lack of professional expertise, you ignored my question, and then a couple of days later set out a very similar narrative of team structures as if you were, once again, the expert 'in the know', without the grace to mention the apparent validity of my previous question. When I reminded you of it, you reverted to your normal cover-up strategies: (1) claiming (in increasingly patronising tones) to be a superior expert, (2) cynically invoking 'being in the presence of nurses' as some sort of cloak of nobility, (3) and crassly insulting people who ask questions or disagree with you.

Yes I am argumentative. But if you are incapable of addressing my arguments, and have to just resort to sophistry and insults, then you, sir, are being the spoilt child.
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I have to say MarkMas, if I every have the need of a ventilator and all the NHS can provide is a team of one nurse with a whole lot of recently trained inexperienced others to cover lots of ventilators on a ward in say the Excel....................I'll take anything I can get to hopefully survive.
 
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