Brexit Deal

CatmanV2

CatmanV2

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Not everyone agreed before the vote. Why would we expect that everyone will be happy with any deal.

And JRM et al are conveniently ignoring that there are at least two sides to this. They may say that they could have got a better deal, but how would they know. Have they been speaking with Barnier? ;)

C
 
GeoffCapes

GeoffCapes

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14,000
The way I see (from what we know) is that the Brexit deal is as close to staying in the EU as possible under the heading of "We're leaving".

I think the best thing going forward would be just to think of it all as a bad dream (Remember Bobby Ewings one in Dallas? - For those old enough) and carry on being part of the EU, let someone else crash out and let it all come tumbling down, then we can say 'I told you so'.

I think we've seen already that leaving is just going to be the most expensive thing ever. Let's just renegotiate what we have from the inside rather than from the outside looking in.
 
conaero

conaero

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There are only two options as I see it:

- stay completely and adhere to European regulations
- go completely and do not adhere to any European regulations (duplicate the current laws for now and amend over time for the benefit of the UK)

A half way house or any deal in the middle of the above simply will not work.
 
TridentTested

TridentTested

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Andyk said:
Sick to death of it all.....I don't give a feck any more
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If you are bored of it now, you ain't seen nothing yet. To renegotiate the trade deals the UK enjoys through EU membership is going to take the rest of your life time, and maybe that of your children. If the UK leaves in a no-deal scenario, the EU remains on our doorstep, it's not going away, everything the UK does in the future will have to be done with reference to the gravity pull of the EU next door.

This will be the main political, economic and social discussion for the rest of your life.
 
Corranga

Corranga

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1,223
TridentTested said:
That bridge has already been crossed, the rest of the world is laughing at the UK.

To do a very silly thing because you think it might be embarrassing to be seen to be changing your mind, is not a reason to do a very silly thing.
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Wait what was the really silly thing though?
Attempting to process leaving, attempting to continue with a government who fundamentally changed from remainer to exiter overnight rather than a general election as the sitting government clearly didn't represent the will of the people, or holding a referendum in the first place, when as a country, we already elect a government of experts to make these decisions for us?
 
Felonious Crud

Felonious Crud

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Corranga said:
Wait what was the really silly thing though?
Attempting to process leaving, attempting to continue with a government who fundamentally changed from remainer to exiter overnight rather than a general election as the sitting government clearly didn't represent the will of the people, or holding a referendum in the first place, when as a country, we already elect a government of experts to make these decisions for us?
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If it's the will of the people you want, then surely one government is not enough. We need at least two, probably four or five.

There's much to be said for the stability of a dictatorship. :)
 
Corranga

Corranga

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Felonious Crud said:
If it's the will of the people you want, then surely one government is not enough. We need at least two, probably four or five.

There's much to be said for the stability of a dictatorship. :)
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...and that's why, as with most things in politics, a middle ground is required.

I understand a little about politics, but not a lot. I understand enough to know that I don't want "the will of the people".
I want something that is functional, and filled with experts who can make the hard decisions that all of us other idiots aren't qualified to do.

I wouldn't go to the local plumber to give me mortgage advice, nor would I look for a scientist to advice me on cooking Xmas dinner, yet our government decided to ask everyone to weigh in on a completely polarising and misunderstood topic, with little to no official guidance on what it would actually entail, cost in terms of time and money, improve, make worse, actually mean - heck, it was so unclear a word was invented to represent it.
So yeah, Brexit means Brexit.


Can't wait for the final definition of the word...
 
daverichardson

daverichardson

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TridentTested said:
I'm a remainer. May I enquire please, what is 'it', and in your answer please include what is your proposal for maintaining the international peace treaty in Northern Ireland which ended a thirty year war, neatly solved 400 years of discord, took ten years to negotiate and was ratified by 71% and 94% referendum majorities on both sides of the border?
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Apologies for late response I have been busy elsewhere.
By 'It' I meant conclude the negotiations as quickly as possible and walk away
I don't have a proposal regarding N Ireland as that was not the Q proposed in the Referendum.
To me it was simply do you wish to leave or remain I chose leave.
I agree it (NI) is a thorny problem and will take some resolving.
Events have moved on today and all this is academic. It has not however changed my view to which I am entitled. We all could go further with this probably to the detriment of the forum so I will stop there
 
TridentTested

TridentTested

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daverichardson said:
Apologies for late response I have been busy elsewhere.
By 'It' I meant conclude the negotiations as quickly as possible and walk away
I don't have a proposal regarding N Ireland as that was not the Q proposed in the Referendum.
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Thanks for the reply.

The negotiations you speak of are simply the Withdrawal Agreement, the future deal is going to take years to establish. It's in everyone's interest to achieve this as quickly as possible but it will take years. CETA is ten years in negotiation. The future UK/EU deal is going to be at least twice as complicated as CETA. Quickly is a relative term; you might become horrified at what trade negotiators think is 'quick'.

There will be no walking away because the UK can't avoid the biggest market in the world on its doorstep. There will be no walking away to WTO trading. The only country in the world trading on WTO terms exclusively is Mauritania. I have greater ambition for the UK than emulating Mauritania.

Northern Ireland was integral to the referendum. The Irish Taoiseach travelled to the UK to make this point. John Major and Tony Blair also made the point. Unfortunately they were shouted down as project fear and foreign interference. The Belfast Agreement pooled (or surrendered - if you want to use that word) sovereignty with Ireland. There are 140 cross-border instruments established which treat the country as one. For example someone in Derry can elect to go a hospital in Donegal, or vice versa. These instruments are underpinned by EU membership. Kick away that membership and they tumble.

But it goes deeper than that. Ireland was the first British colony. The 17th century settlers whom the DUP are descended from were planted there to run the country. Since then this has been an intractable problem coming to a head with The Troubles; 3,600 dead. EU membership gave an answer: both sides could see a bigger picture. Someone born in the six counties has the right to identify as British, or Irish, or both. If they identify as Irish they are EU citizens and have all the rights that EU citizens enjoy including recourse to EU courts. To take that right away from those Northern Irish who identify as British creates division. Anyone who looked at this before the referendum could see these problems.

It's a mess.
 
rivarama

rivarama

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1,102
Contigo said:
Absolutely spot on and also the EU have shown what spiteful ***** they are too. Snivelling unelected bureaucrats sat in their ivory towers worried about their lives being sent into turmoil should the EU collapse and treating the UK as a scapegoat and lesson for anyone else thinking of leaving.
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I think the Brexit negotiations debacle and resignations / war of words etc... have proven that the UK politicians are just the same - only difference is that they are elected !!

Also, I suggest, Sir, you read the definition of “deterrent” in the dictionary, and then come and tell us that the EU is acting without logic in their approach to Brexit in order dissuade other members from leaving as well.
 
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