Why I'm going EV, and another thing!!

mowlas

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1,733
Not wishing to get into a debate over this and I’m not one to seek to win debates for the sake of it. On this topic there are a myriad of factors to consider and I’m no expert.

I remain unconvinced is all I’ll say… when I look at the carbon footprint of countries such as Cuba (re-cycling their gas guzzlers) with 2.68 tons per capita compared to the UK with 5.55 tons per capita.
 

bigbob

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8,972
Since the late 1990s, the UK car market has fluctuated between 2.1 million and 3 million sales, with a peek in 2016 of 3 million units, after a low of less than 2.2 million sales in 2009.

So even at the best ever rates its c11 years before the old stock is replaced by new, of course thats if all new cars are BEVs.

I doubt the Gov has money to pay for another scrappage scheme, and if its anything like the last one it will all be spent on Chinese and Korean imports. Not mention the cost of living crisis which will hit peoples ability to buy new cars along with no doubt a cut in incentives to do so.
Yes for number of units but for a blend of miles driven I suspect the transition will be a lot faster. Support for industries happens when the economy is struggling and with semi-conductor supply likely to get back to notmal just as people are unlikely to want to spend money on big ticket items anything could happen! I would not want to be be car retailing as the business model is changing and demand will likely stay low for a while.
 

FIFTY

Member
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3,100
One of my managers refused to attend a meeting with me today because he has an electric company car and doesn't want to drive 4 hours for fear of needing to charge it

I need to get myself into one if these EVs so I can slack off as well.
 

FIFTY

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3,100
Welcome to the real world Keith. When you realise that as a white, middle class, heterosexual male with sensible principles you are, automatically, surplus to requirements. The Brave New World is a playground for angst ridden, leftist, Woke W4nkers who are rebels without a clue. They won't be happy until we regress to a winmill powered Utopia that is dependent on donkeys for transport. And when we get there, they'll be complaining that we are knee deep in horse sh!t. My advice is; go with the flow but do your own thing, and the more SJWs you upset, the better. Welcome to the struggle.

When ethnic minorities, members of the opposite sex(es) and non heteros start telling you that it's all in your head and you are imagining the fact that you are being marginalised - then you know that you're screwed.
 

Tallman

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1,834
Not wishing to get into a debate over this and I’m not one to seek to win debates for the sake of it. On this topic there are a myriad of factors to consider and I’m no expert.

I remain unconvinced is all I’ll say… when I look at the carbon footprint of countries such as Cuba (re-cycling their gas guzzlers) with 2.68 tons per capita compared to the UK with 5.55 tons per capita.
I agree there is no point in winning arguments for the sake of it (unless in jest). It is more important to stick to facts.

I just hope you are not unconvinced about the differential in CO2/capita between Cuba and the UK based on them recycling gas guzzlers (and possibly extrapolating that recycling gas guzzlers might lower the UK’s CO2 per capita). Cuba has 480,000 cars (42 per 1,000 people) and the UK has 31 million (473 per 100 people). So the effect of the UK going EV vs Cuba going EV is quite a bit larger.

CO2 per capita is very much related to how rich a country is.
 

mowlas

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1,733
I agree there is no point in winning arguments for the sake of it (unless in jest). It is more important to stick to facts.

I just hope you are not unconvinced about the differential in CO2/capita between Cuba and the UK based on them recycling gas guzzlers (and possibly extrapolating that recycling gas guzzlers might lower the UK’s CO2 per capita). Cuba has 480,000 cars (42 per 1,000 people) and the UK has 31 million (473 per 100 people). So the effect of the UK going EV vs Cuba going EV is quite a bit larger.

CO2 per capita is very much related to how rich a country is.
No that’s no what I’m saying. My point is that I believe reducing consumption (fewer overall cars and fewer new cars) and human behaviours (all kinds of behaviours including the way people drive) is much more likely to impact the carbon footprint than tech.

I’m also not at all convinced by the total lifetime carbon footprint calculation of an EV… I remain open to be convinced if I see a holistic and objective study.
 

drellis

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808
I've bought an i3 for my business purely as the maths runs. It's great around town. But there's no sound! , it's acceleration is linear, it's less taxing and good for commute, but an ev for fun, with no noise.
No thank you. You get pleasure from listening to the engine or even just hearing it idle. Ev has a place for short commute, but not for fu
 

Tallman

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1,834
No that’s no what I’m saying. My point is that I believe reducing consumption (fewer overall cars and fewer new cars) and human behaviours (all kinds of behaviours including the way people drive) is much more likely to impact the carbon footprint than tech.

I’m also not at all convinced by the total lifetime carbon footprint calculation of an EV… I remain open to be convinced if I see a holistic and objective study.
Yes it is quite confusing in terms of lifetime carbon footprint of EV vs ICE. So confusing that I decided to go a bit deeper and look at what really determines the distance a vehicle travels in its lifetime at which an EV starts to be better than an ICE in terms of total emissions.

It basically comes down to the extra emissions needed to produce the battery vs the savings in emissions during use (electricity vs petrol), or a fixed vs variable emissions cost calculation.

Apart from manufacture of the car itself, use emissions for ICE consists of extraction, transport & refinery of the oil (relatively less important) and the eventual burning of the fuel in the engine (by far the largest component).

Apart from manufacture of the car itself, use emissions for EV are determined by the mix of energy sources used to produce the electricity which are different per country and sometimes per energy company. In the UK this is 233gr CO2/KWh, in South Africa a whopping 1kg/KWh because they use predominantly coal to generate electricity.

In terms of manufacture, the size of the battery and what energy source is being used to produce the battery determine the extra “fixed emissions cost” of going EV. Most studies (dating around 2017) indicate that this was between 50 and 150 kg/KWh which is coming down every year as more sustainable sources are being used to generate electricity. 50 was for a European country, 150 for Asian countries (more or less). For a BMW i3 this works out at about 3,000 kg CO2 it needs to earn back from driving.

In the UK the point at which an i3 becomes better in terms of emissions is then just over 13k miles. In South Africa it is about 60k miles. As we convert to more sustainable electricity generating practices this will come down. In most of the 1st world this is coming down fast so you need to factor that into the decision of whether an EV will work for you. Just remember this is the lifetime emissions, not the emissions you generate for how long you have the car.

The average lifetime of a car in the UK is 13.5 years and the average mileage is 6,800 miles which works out to a total average mileage of 91,800 per car. We have an i3 driving around in SA that has done over 200k miles so it would seem that the average mileage is not a problem in terms of life span. The maths look to be firmly in favour of replacing ICE with EV if we disregard practical reasons in terms of range and charge times. Fortunately the charge times are coming down and the range is increasing with rapid technological advances, so the practical aspects will become less of a concern.
 
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Nibby

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2,089
Fortunately the charge times are coming down and the range is increasing with rapid technological advances, so the practical aspects will become less of a concern.
Not to up on the ev thing but if someone buys a car currently on offer with a range of 200 miles and in a couple of years time they make one with a 500 mile range will the 200 mile range car be hard to sell when you want to move it on? It just seems with ev’s at the moment you could soon have out of date technology on your hands that you’ve stumped up a lot of cash for.
 

mowlas

Member
Messages
1,733
Yes it is quite confusing in terms of lifetime carbon footprint of EV vs ICE. So confusing that I decided to go a bit deeper and look at what really determines the distance a vehicle travels in its lifetime at which an EV starts to be better than an ICE in terms of total emissions.

It basically comes down to the extra emissions needed to produce the battery vs the savings in emissions during use (electricity vs petrol), or a fixed vs variable emissions cost calculation.

Apart from manufacture of the car itself, use emissions for ICE consists of extraction, transport & refinery of the oil (relatively less important) and the eventual burning of the fuel in the engine (by far the largest component). For a

Apart from manufacture of the car itself, use emissions for EV are determined by the mix of energy sources used to produce the electricity which are different per country and sometimes per energy company. In the UK this is 233gr CO2/KWh, in South Africa a whopping 1kg/KWh because they use predominantly coal to generate electricity.

In terms of manufacture, the size of the battery and what energy source is being used to produce the battery determine the extra “fixed emissions cost” of going EV. Most studies (dating around 2017) indicate that this was between 50 and 150 kg/KWh which is coming down every year as more sustainable sources are being used to generate electricity. 50 was for a European country, 150 for Asian countries (more or less). For a BMW i3 this works out at about 3,000 kg CO2 it needs to earn back from driving.

In the UK the point at which an i3 becomes better in terms of emissions is then just over 13k miles. In South Africa it is about 60k miles. As we convert to more sustainable electricity generating practices this will come down. In most of the 1st world this is coming down fast so you need to factor that into the decision of whether an EV will work for you. Just remember this is the lifetime emissions, not the emissions you generate for how long you have the car.

The average lifetime of a car in the UK is 13.5 years and the average mileage is 6,800 miles which works out to a total average mileage of 91,800 per car. We have an i3 driving around in SA that has done over 200k miles so it would seem that the average mileage is not a problem in terms of life span. The maths look to be firmly in favour of replacing ICE with EV if we disregard practical reasons in terms of charge times. Fortunately the charge times are coming down and the range is increasing with rapid technological advances, so the practical aspects will become less of a concern.
Thank you Tallman. I’m going to have to cogitate over this one a bit and do some sums. But really appreciate your digging into this! Thanks again
 

c4sman

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1,260
Only Volvo has been prepared to come "clean" on the full holistic benefits (or not) of EVs on Co2
 

Phil H

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4,167
If manufacturers can massage diesel consumption/emission figures they can and will be creative with their EV stats, both for type approval and to prove their green credentials, and governments will be happy to go along with it to show that 'regulation is working'. Good on Volvo for taking the lead, but I don't expect too many to follow. The true answer to a greener planet is mass transport systems at the expense of private motoring, but thankfully that won't happen in my lifetime - if ever.

Shmee makes some good points, although the DBS and Lusso don't exactly relate to the world that most folk live in and which politicians have to think about.
 

Tallman

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1,834
Only Volvo has been prepared to come "clean" on the full holistic benefits (or not) of EVs on Co2
Very interesting study. One of the purposes was to show that just making an EV is not enough. You need to make sure that you make it with as little emissions as possible, otherwise it is just a marketing exercise for another product that you think will sell. They will have to come up with a system like we have for appliances, where you can see the emissions level of production as well as usage (from A+++ to F). Interesting to see that the actual manufacturing/ assembly of the EV version at the Volvo plant generates 33% less emissions than the ICE version presumably because of (a lot) less parts to assemble.
 

Oneball

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11,121
Very interesting study. One of the purposes was to show that just making an EV is not enough. You need to make sure that you make it with as little emissions as possible, otherwise it is just a marketing exercise for another product that you think will sell. They will have to come up with a system like we have for appliances, where you can see the emissions level of production as well as usage (from A+++ to F). Interesting to see that the actual manufacturing/ assembly of the EV version at the Volvo plant generates 33% less emissions than the ICE version presumably because of (a lot) less parts to assemble.

The Volvo EV assembly is less because the battery isn’t made by Volvo. There’s 62.5% greater emissions from producing the EV verses ICE when the battery manufacture is included. It’s only when you factor in a 200,000km life that the EV starts to win the carbon argument
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This is where it falls down. Rich people buying EVs as a 3rd car to use around town and go to the shops doesn’t add up.