Possible forum car Frank
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Parisien
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Ok guys........whose up for a piece of this........5/6 of us............the discussion has taken place before......sorta need to know.....pretty soon....plus anyone nearby who can have a look at it in next 24hrs.....sorta?
Will bump this thread 3/4 times during today
1.Parisien
2. Conaero
P
Will bump this thread 3/4 times during today
1.Parisien
2. Conaero
P
Parisien
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Ok...a few posts to re-inform.....
Interesting proposition.
I would assume the mechanicsm of shared ownership are perhaps that
A) one person needs to be the registered owner.
B) All parties are on the insurance policy.
C) All parties jointly agree to pay equal shares to servicing, repair work etc.
Any other mechanisms?
There was thread on another forum relating to three good friends sharing a Ferrari 360 recently, which may help give some ideas of the practical issues we need to consider.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...mid=0&nmt=Some advice please - joint Ferrari 360 ownership
Time period - would it perhaps be sensible to agree a possible time scale for future re-sale (say, three years?). This could be changed by mutual agreement, but if there are likely to be quite a few joint owners (eg ten?!), setting a default time scale at the outset may help prevent a stalemate in the future.
I may be interested - subject to debate about sensible solutions to practicalities. I welcome debate and opinion.
David
How would the time be divided up and how would the logistics of passing the car across, work in practice?
There is likely to be quite a wide geographical spread amongst the joint owners, so perhaps to make it work smoothly we'd need to have the car for more than a week at a time - perhaps a month at a time?
Another way to ease the 'passing across' of the car from one joint owner ('jo') to another may be to arrange the sequence on a (closest) geographical basis. eg One 'jo' in Bristol has it a for a period, then the next period is by a 'jo' in the Cotswolds, then a 'jo' in Warwickshire, then Nottinghamshire etc etc.
Unless there is another way to structure the ownership I presume it would need to be in one or two names at most (but would welcome correction/ clarification on this point). As that person would be buying the car and would be responsiible for the outlay of cash there is a significant degree of trust and integrity required (in both directions, but particularly the brave man signing on the dotted line and preparing to and across say £15,-20,000) which we all need to consider at this stage (and not the day after the auction closes).
I like the idea of say twenty shares available, which can be transferred. Presumably, there won't be anything more formal than a brief written agreement, or will there..?
The concept of working ike a traditional classic car club may be one to evolve to in the future, but I think there is an initial risk that all 365 days may not be sold, so someone has to underwrite the unsold days (which could be considerable), so at this stage I personally think the share system is the preferential approach.
I'm happy for my thoughts to be disproved/ contradicted etc (preferably politely!) in the process of getting to a workable scheme.
Where do we go from here? I suggest two separate strands -
Firstly, can we agree the issues to consider to make a workable scheme?
Secondly, can we start to gauge initial (no commitment, but genuinely considered) levels of interest?
Kind regards,
David
Guys....thanks for all your ideas and considered thought....all over-comeable obstacles....just requires the will power and more importantly goodwill from those prepared to sign up.
1. Suitable/agreed/target car..this one...or too early in the process?
2. How many co-owners/timeshare/shares per week per share?
3. Purchase budget?
4. Maintenance budget...either to further fine tune or agreed schedule of works over 2/4/6 mths.
5. Annual servicing...tyres wear and tear, insurance, mileage pa.........part of the shared ownership agreement...ie if you put more in to buy, then have most periods of use, pay more to maintain.
6. Person most suitable to garage/ look after car at its base?
7. Buy out/sell up clauses to ensure least hassle if you want out after 2/3 years......period of ownership, when to sell if 50% agree..again a buy out clause for those happy to stay.
8. Any other considerations....please add on......
P
Interesting proposition.
I would assume the mechanicsm of shared ownership are perhaps that
A) one person needs to be the registered owner.
B) All parties are on the insurance policy.
C) All parties jointly agree to pay equal shares to servicing, repair work etc.
Any other mechanisms?
There was thread on another forum relating to three good friends sharing a Ferrari 360 recently, which may help give some ideas of the practical issues we need to consider.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...mid=0&nmt=Some advice please - joint Ferrari 360 ownership
Time period - would it perhaps be sensible to agree a possible time scale for future re-sale (say, three years?). This could be changed by mutual agreement, but if there are likely to be quite a few joint owners (eg ten?!), setting a default time scale at the outset may help prevent a stalemate in the future.
I may be interested - subject to debate about sensible solutions to practicalities. I welcome debate and opinion.
David
How would the time be divided up and how would the logistics of passing the car across, work in practice?
There is likely to be quite a wide geographical spread amongst the joint owners, so perhaps to make it work smoothly we'd need to have the car for more than a week at a time - perhaps a month at a time?
Another way to ease the 'passing across' of the car from one joint owner ('jo') to another may be to arrange the sequence on a (closest) geographical basis. eg One 'jo' in Bristol has it a for a period, then the next period is by a 'jo' in the Cotswolds, then a 'jo' in Warwickshire, then Nottinghamshire etc etc.
Unless there is another way to structure the ownership I presume it would need to be in one or two names at most (but would welcome correction/ clarification on this point). As that person would be buying the car and would be responsiible for the outlay of cash there is a significant degree of trust and integrity required (in both directions, but particularly the brave man signing on the dotted line and preparing to and across say £15,-20,000) which we all need to consider at this stage (and not the day after the auction closes).
I like the idea of say twenty shares available, which can be transferred. Presumably, there won't be anything more formal than a brief written agreement, or will there..?
The concept of working ike a traditional classic car club may be one to evolve to in the future, but I think there is an initial risk that all 365 days may not be sold, so someone has to underwrite the unsold days (which could be considerable), so at this stage I personally think the share system is the preferential approach.
I'm happy for my thoughts to be disproved/ contradicted etc (preferably politely!) in the process of getting to a workable scheme.
Where do we go from here? I suggest two separate strands -
Firstly, can we agree the issues to consider to make a workable scheme?
Secondly, can we start to gauge initial (no commitment, but genuinely considered) levels of interest?
Kind regards,
David
Guys....thanks for all your ideas and considered thought....all over-comeable obstacles....just requires the will power and more importantly goodwill from those prepared to sign up.
1. Suitable/agreed/target car..this one...or too early in the process?
2. How many co-owners/timeshare/shares per week per share?
3. Purchase budget?
4. Maintenance budget...either to further fine tune or agreed schedule of works over 2/4/6 mths.
5. Annual servicing...tyres wear and tear, insurance, mileage pa.........part of the shared ownership agreement...ie if you put more in to buy, then have most periods of use, pay more to maintain.
6. Person most suitable to garage/ look after car at its base?
7. Buy out/sell up clauses to ensure least hassle if you want out after 2/3 years......period of ownership, when to sell if 50% agree..again a buy out clause for those happy to stay.
8. Any other considerations....please add on......
P
Parisien
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More from David.....
Paco's initial figures of £15,000 for a car plus a further £3k maint/improvement looks like a realistic sum to work out a scheme with (actual figures could be tweaked later). Given nine shares at £2,000 each. Nothing to stop anyone taking two or three shares. Cost of ongoing maintenance/ servicing tyres etc can be split straight (here into 'ninths'). This sort of scale of purchase perhaps has quite broad appeal - plenty (I hope) will be happy to 'give it a go' with £2-3k initial outlay.
Insurance is a big unknown - does anyone have any good contacts in the industry to get a sensible view on how an insurer might look at a scheme like this? An insurers view may force our hand into a maximum number of co-owners or a minimum age of owner, perhaps (hopefully not, the fewer imposed restrictions on a workable scheme the better, but better to know at this stage).
Frank, your point 4. - maintenance budget and the timing will probably be difficult to determine before we find the car - its needs will dictate part of the timing at least.
Where possible I think all participants should have a say according to the amount of money put in (or shares bought etc). However, there perhaps needs to be a 'board' of perhaps three people who can make exec decisions when the (say) nine co-owner disagree (eg I could foresee several opinions taking time to resolve on something as potentially simple as which tyres to put on!).
And this link to previous discussion -
http://www.sportsmaserati.co.uk/sho...orum-Project-feedback-needed!?highlight=forum
P
Paco's initial figures of £15,000 for a car plus a further £3k maint/improvement looks like a realistic sum to work out a scheme with (actual figures could be tweaked later). Given nine shares at £2,000 each. Nothing to stop anyone taking two or three shares. Cost of ongoing maintenance/ servicing tyres etc can be split straight (here into 'ninths'). This sort of scale of purchase perhaps has quite broad appeal - plenty (I hope) will be happy to 'give it a go' with £2-3k initial outlay.
Insurance is a big unknown - does anyone have any good contacts in the industry to get a sensible view on how an insurer might look at a scheme like this? An insurers view may force our hand into a maximum number of co-owners or a minimum age of owner, perhaps (hopefully not, the fewer imposed restrictions on a workable scheme the better, but better to know at this stage).
Frank, your point 4. - maintenance budget and the timing will probably be difficult to determine before we find the car - its needs will dictate part of the timing at least.
Where possible I think all participants should have a say according to the amount of money put in (or shares bought etc). However, there perhaps needs to be a 'board' of perhaps three people who can make exec decisions when the (say) nine co-owner disagree (eg I could foresee several opinions taking time to resolve on something as potentially simple as which tyres to put on!).
And this link to previous discussion -
http://www.sportsmaserati.co.uk/sho...orum-Project-feedback-needed!?highlight=forum
P
conaero
Forum Owner
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I would want someone with some knowledge like Bal to give it the once over before I would commit.
From doing a classic before, completness and obviously rust are the most important things. The bumpers are off, do they have the hardware to remount them....the engine is in bits, are all the parts there....things like that.
From doing a classic before, completness and obviously rust are the most important things. The bumpers are off, do they have the hardware to remount them....the engine is in bits, are all the parts there....things like that.
Khamsin433
Junior Member
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Guys,
Had another look at the pictures. My only concern is the engine/ gearbox. No pictures of the box, but would hope that it is complete as it had only been rebuilt shortly before the car came off the road. However that was 30 odd years back so what will the internal condition be?
The engine is in pieces and that would be the major concern, has anything been lost over the years? It is less complex an engine when compared to the Khamsin in that it's not dry sump, but otherwise a very similar unit. There appears to tbe a gasket kit and a carb kit in the pictures, good as they are now expensive but only if the condition is ok after all these years.
Question, why has it not been rebuilt if they had all the parts to do so?
The crank looks ok, but pictures can be flattering, and has been exposed to air for a long time, has it been kept greased/ oiled in that time to prevent surface rust? These engines are known to be robust, I'd suspect a head gasket failure may be the reason it's apart as that's the usual case. My car didn't need any crank work after 65K miles and 30 years since leaving the factory.
As it is a 4.7 model with the later revised dash it should have no LHM components, I think they cam on the last few that were manufactured. This is a boon as we are talking of standard brakes with standard seals. Mecahnincally there is nothing complex it the running gear, all tried and tested designs. I'd expect the diff to need a new crown seal, but not much else. Dampers, brakes etc checked over and renewed where needed. Electrics will be fun, but not a major worry, I'd help out if needed as I've done a few loom rebuilds in the past.
Now don't get me wrong not trying to put a spanner in the works, we are looking at a car in bits, probably the worst way of buying a classic. However there are various sources where spares can be obtained, eurospares, mie, maseratisource. Mechanical parts can be found so the engine could be restored. Worst case sceanrio around £10K to do if we haven't got folk handy with a spanner or two to cut down costs. I have workshop manuals from MIE that may be useful for a wet sump rebuild, can always make these available.
Bumpers are off the car but they don't look like complex items to fit, bolts/ nut etc that woud be hidden or good old fashioned chrome items as fitted to a host of cars in the past so I wouldn't be too worried about that. Carpets can be made up, enough specialists in the country to do that. Count on a new set of tyres, ok some of the old sizes are getting hard to come by, but it is still possible, cost me around £140 each for a Pirelli P4000 for the Khamsin. Broken rear screen, I think these are available new (have even found the suppliers who have the specs and can produce most glass, URO Glas). It is not a complex shape, mostly a flat item. Even if you went down the path of a Perspex temporary item not the end of the world.
Then we come to the body, something that cannot be assesed from pictures. Can see surface rust near the nose cone and a lot of dirt. 70's cars rust as we all know. More so Italian cars of the era. While he may describe it as solid, you really need someone on site with a poker to see if anything gives. A few dents can be seen in the NSF wing, but a good panel beater can work magic. Again have we any folk who are handy with metal working tools? What price can you put on this type of work and a good respray job? We may be only looking at superficial areas that could be locally repaired and blown in just to get the car on the road and a more complete respray handled later down the line.
Personally I would recommend that latter path, get it together and roadworthy and tart up as you go along and as funds allow. Gives you time to collect items as you go along without having to pay through the nose. Henshaws are known in the classic Maserati world to produce repair panels of the highedt quality, again not a ead end if you come across rust issues.
Bear in mind that Indy's are not that valuable at the moment, been a car on the road for sale for the past year at around 18K. But one day things will have to turn as the more sought after cars rise above mere mortals as we and other options have to be considered.
Demand will give rise to value increases., when do you wish to get onto the highway to **** as they say?
Miles are good for a car of it's ages, though I don't like white (at least that's how it comes across in the pics) on an Indy but that's just me. Can be a helpful in that it does show up dirty rust stains quite clearly.
Plus as I'm an Indian, I'd always try to knock the price down to make it more favourable for us.
As said before you need the Kahuna's to take it on, once on the path it will be a rollercoaster ride, but that is the name of the game. I'm no expert but where I can I'd offer up my help if it is of any use. I never like to see these old girls scrapped, they need to be on the open road, roaring !
Hope the above ramblings help you guys make your decision.
Had another look at the pictures. My only concern is the engine/ gearbox. No pictures of the box, but would hope that it is complete as it had only been rebuilt shortly before the car came off the road. However that was 30 odd years back so what will the internal condition be?
The engine is in pieces and that would be the major concern, has anything been lost over the years? It is less complex an engine when compared to the Khamsin in that it's not dry sump, but otherwise a very similar unit. There appears to tbe a gasket kit and a carb kit in the pictures, good as they are now expensive but only if the condition is ok after all these years.
Question, why has it not been rebuilt if they had all the parts to do so?
The crank looks ok, but pictures can be flattering, and has been exposed to air for a long time, has it been kept greased/ oiled in that time to prevent surface rust? These engines are known to be robust, I'd suspect a head gasket failure may be the reason it's apart as that's the usual case. My car didn't need any crank work after 65K miles and 30 years since leaving the factory.
As it is a 4.7 model with the later revised dash it should have no LHM components, I think they cam on the last few that were manufactured. This is a boon as we are talking of standard brakes with standard seals. Mecahnincally there is nothing complex it the running gear, all tried and tested designs. I'd expect the diff to need a new crown seal, but not much else. Dampers, brakes etc checked over and renewed where needed. Electrics will be fun, but not a major worry, I'd help out if needed as I've done a few loom rebuilds in the past.
Now don't get me wrong not trying to put a spanner in the works, we are looking at a car in bits, probably the worst way of buying a classic. However there are various sources where spares can be obtained, eurospares, mie, maseratisource. Mechanical parts can be found so the engine could be restored. Worst case sceanrio around £10K to do if we haven't got folk handy with a spanner or two to cut down costs. I have workshop manuals from MIE that may be useful for a wet sump rebuild, can always make these available.
Bumpers are off the car but they don't look like complex items to fit, bolts/ nut etc that woud be hidden or good old fashioned chrome items as fitted to a host of cars in the past so I wouldn't be too worried about that. Carpets can be made up, enough specialists in the country to do that. Count on a new set of tyres, ok some of the old sizes are getting hard to come by, but it is still possible, cost me around £140 each for a Pirelli P4000 for the Khamsin. Broken rear screen, I think these are available new (have even found the suppliers who have the specs and can produce most glass, URO Glas). It is not a complex shape, mostly a flat item. Even if you went down the path of a Perspex temporary item not the end of the world.
Then we come to the body, something that cannot be assesed from pictures. Can see surface rust near the nose cone and a lot of dirt. 70's cars rust as we all know. More so Italian cars of the era. While he may describe it as solid, you really need someone on site with a poker to see if anything gives. A few dents can be seen in the NSF wing, but a good panel beater can work magic. Again have we any folk who are handy with metal working tools? What price can you put on this type of work and a good respray job? We may be only looking at superficial areas that could be locally repaired and blown in just to get the car on the road and a more complete respray handled later down the line.
Personally I would recommend that latter path, get it together and roadworthy and tart up as you go along and as funds allow. Gives you time to collect items as you go along without having to pay through the nose. Henshaws are known in the classic Maserati world to produce repair panels of the highedt quality, again not a ead end if you come across rust issues.
Bear in mind that Indy's are not that valuable at the moment, been a car on the road for sale for the past year at around 18K. But one day things will have to turn as the more sought after cars rise above mere mortals as we and other options have to be considered.
Demand will give rise to value increases., when do you wish to get onto the highway to **** as they say?
Miles are good for a car of it's ages, though I don't like white (at least that's how it comes across in the pics) on an Indy but that's just me. Can be a helpful in that it does show up dirty rust stains quite clearly.
Plus as I'm an Indian, I'd always try to knock the price down to make it more favourable for us.
As said before you need the Kahuna's to take it on, once on the path it will be a rollercoaster ride, but that is the name of the game. I'm no expert but where I can I'd offer up my help if it is of any use. I never like to see these old girls scrapped, they need to be on the open road, roaring !
Hope the above ramblings help you guys make your decision.
Parisien
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Bal, as ever your insight and experience in this area are both appreciated and highly valued.
Basically, this needs looked over to decide what needs done.
The price asked reasonable for the type of car and its heritage, never mind what it would be worth after restoration....not a huge amount by all accounts.
So if £10 K for engine, £5k for other mechanicals, £7K for a medium amount of bodywork and paint, £3k for others...totaling around £30K all in.........sounds right?
Again......need someone local to have a poke.......anyone?
Anyone else interested?
P
Basically, this needs looked over to decide what needs done.
The price asked reasonable for the type of car and its heritage, never mind what it would be worth after restoration....not a huge amount by all accounts.
So if £10 K for engine, £5k for other mechanicals, £7K for a medium amount of bodywork and paint, £3k for others...totaling around £30K all in.........sounds right?
Again......need someone local to have a poke.......anyone?
Anyone else interested?
P
Parisien
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A few egs to compare.....
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C144858
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C113493
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C110592
Adam...will love this one...
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C239999
P
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C144858
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C113493
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C110592
Adam...will love this one...
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C239999
P
GransportFan1
Member
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not keen on that model Frank, the blue one looks the better one out of the 3.
Khamsin433
Junior Member
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Need someone near Aylesbury to pop in, who's closest and free to have a look?
Frank I think you are being realistic with the money side, especially if handing in for all the work. But as I said in my earlier post it could be treated as a running project if it can be put back on the road first.
That brown car has been on sale for over a year and has been up for around 16K (maybe on the club site). But looking at the others, values seem to be creeping up over 20K, wich is good. Those cars are the earlier models, with the grab bar on the passenger dash.
Again not I'm an expert in all things classic, but unitil viewed we won't know the true extent of the work required.
Frank I think you are being realistic with the money side, especially if handing in for all the work. But as I said in my earlier post it could be treated as a running project if it can be put back on the road first.
That brown car has been on sale for over a year and has been up for around 16K (maybe on the club site). But looking at the others, values seem to be creeping up over 20K, wich is good. Those cars are the earlier models, with the grab bar on the passenger dash.
Again not I'm an expert in all things classic, but unitil viewed we won't know the true extent of the work required.
lozcb
Member
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- 12,586
Forget it Matt , i went to see this car last year and posted the pics on this site , its got axe marks through several of the panels in several places , floors are rusted through as are many of the panels , engine is in bits and its hard to say its all there anyway , keep well clear , i'll dig out the pics if you want
The guy hadn't paid his rent on the storage and i think the landlords took it out on the car, he stripped it 10 years ago , a proper basket case and not worth the trouble
regards loz
lozcb
Member
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Been threatning for sometime to visit this place , when i can find the time its Maserati classic heaven
http://www.stolzeclassiccars.nl/
enjoy the browse Frank , well worth a look
regards loz
lozcb
Member
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- 12,586
Ive been corresponding with Joop for some time Frank, trying to get him to advertise some on the forum which i think he's going to do , he's very flexible price wise and willing to do a deal plus he likes cash ..............says it all really , a man after my own heart
regards loz
Parisien
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Loz....what do ya know......................they even have the fore runner of your fav Datsun GTR.......
http://www.stolzeclassiccars.nl/
You might have to search under that marque....
P
http://www.stolzeclassiccars.nl/
You might have to search under that marque....
P
Parisien
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....not quite Loz......one of these...I can see where they got the styling pointers from......have a look....
Datsun
Type: 2000 Fairlady
Year of construction: 1968
Condition: good
Color: blue métalic
Price: To be discussed
Comments: Japanees classic sportscar .
P
Datsun
Type: 2000 Fairlady
Year of construction: 1968
Condition: good
Color: blue métalic
Price: To be discussed
Comments: Japanees classic sportscar .
P
lozcb
Member
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....not quite Loz......one of these...I can see where they got the styling pointers from......have a look....
Datsun
Type: 2000 Fairlady
Year of construction: 1968
Condition: good
Color: blue métalic
Price: To be discussed
Comments: Japanees classic sportscar .
P
See what you mean Frank , but not my cup of tea , sure i'll let you know when im going , think Enzo wanted to come aswell
regards loz