Made in China

[Silvercat]

I am keen like most for this to not be an anti-China thread per se. It wasn't started or meant to be this. It happens that what China do/support/create is currently part of the issue but as others have said if it wasn't China it would be someone else somewhere else. They are just meeting demand.

The market will supply what the market wants. The market desires need to change to force manufacturer and supplier changes.

The corruption and imbalance is an issue and needs to be dealt with, monitored and managed at govt level. We have always had this, still have it and may always have it to an extent. Attitudes need to change to invoke change.

It is all about doing stuff for money rather than for other reasons. We all know money is often an imbalanced driver and sometimes a root of evil but change can happen. Yes, we have to start small and somewhere.

As John has mentioned it is great to see when faced with options the resistance to increase the support of the race to the bottom. If we keep providing cheap tat for the majority to buy they will. If we change this they will change buying habits because they have to as that is no longer an option.

Maybe the govts should flip this on its head and impose levies/taxes on one use products. Being more responsible to what you bring into the world is then exited correctly as well. It is your product for its life. There should be a stamped code on all products and when we find them we know who created them and they need to deal with disposal.

Obviously pie in the sky ideas and massively complex to kick off but we need to change as we cannot continue along the current route.

The big issue for me is with the sudden arrival of the Covid-19 , it has seriously exposed how vulnerable our economy is in terms of security of supply for many industrial, pharmaceutical and foodstuff reqmts which are crucial to the well being of this country. It just demonstrates for me that price has always been the over riding factor in determining any source of supply at the expense of all other considerations in many areas and sectors. This has led to quite fragile and very extended supply chains which are easily broken in a crisis situation. The time has come for UKG and industry to rethink how it sources in the future to minimise the risks. Globalisation has many upsides but equally many down sides and I hope that this crisis will trigger a rethink of how best to operate and manage our economy which is much more constructive to the well being of this planet for everyones sake.

 

[Delmonte]

I guess that’s why Bosch moved production to Malaysia, Mexico and China...

True that these days Bosch are as **** and disposable as everything else? I thought they were going the way of Sony (previously uniquely good but went the way of all others?) That’s the recent rep. Unsure if truth in it. I do have a Bosch drill that is garbage. Also have their ovens, which do have a cheap feel to them?

 

[Hurricane52]

True that these days Bosch are as **** and disposable as everything else? I thought they were going the way of Sony (previously uniquely good but went the way of all others?) That’s the recent rep. Unsure if truth in it. I do have a Bosch drill that is garbage. Also have their ovens, which do have a cheap feel to them?

Indeed. It’s noticeable how poor most things they have made post 2017 have become. I used to buy each of our guys a Bosch drill so they looked after them and if they needed a service or repair they could drop them off at our local tool shop. I’d pop in a day or so later for a natter about old cars and pay the bill - usually less than £50. In the past few years, the newer models have nearly all had various problems and the bills are usually well into three figures - often more than the cost of a new one in a shiny new plastic box.

Sadly, there’s always a human cost to this - the old boy who runs the shop (always in a brown cotton shopkeepers coat) has had to put the premises up for sale. Probably due to the arrival of a Screwfix warehouse on the edge of town.

I don’t enjoy the old car chats quite as much nowadays.

 

[lozcb]

Indeed. It’s noticeable how poor most things they have made post 2017 have become. I used to buy each of our guys a Bosch drill so they looked after them and if they needed a service or repair they could drop them off at our local tool shop. I’d pop in a day or so later for a natter about old cars and pay the bill - usually less than £50. In the past few years, the newer models have nearly all had various problems and the bills are usually well into three figures - often more than the cost of a new one in a shiny new plastic box.

Sadly, there’s always a human cost to this - the old boy who runs the shop (always in a brown cotton shopkeepers coat) has had to put the premises up for sale. Probably due to the arrival of a Screwfix warehouse on the edge of town.

I don’t enjoy the old car chats quite as much nowadays.

From my experience from running 13 teams of kitchen fitters , the mainstay for along while now has been Makita for cordless drills , impact drivers Routers and Jigsaws, planers and Elu and Makita for angle or chop saws ....................i would entertain anything else

 

[2b1ask1]

I pretty much run exclusively Makita Li-Ion 18v stuff, the big advantage to me being the range and interchangeable batteries. I run a collection of 9 batteries of varying ages most are 3ah bit as I change them I replace with 5ah. I also use a few 2 x battery 36v options for circ saw and hedge trimmer etc.

mates that do installation work though gave mostly moved to Milwaukee stuff, they recon it is tougher.

 

[lozcb]

I pretty much run exclusively Makita Li-Ion 18v stuff, the big advantage to me being the range and interchangeable batteries. I run a collection of 9 batteries of varying ages most are 3ah bit as I change them I replace with 5ah. I also use a few 2 x battery 36v options for circ saw and hedge trimmer etc.

mates that do installation work though gave mostly moved to Milwaukee stuff, they recon it is tougher.

I can't qualify or deny that ,have never used it ,but their is from memory a 15-20% price difference and I think the batteries are more interchangeable , but both quality products and not of Chinese origin

 

[CatmanV2]

I was using my DeWalt drill a couple of days back. It's good enough for me. Owned it for a couple of years. Never realised it had a batter indicator on the back

C

 

[2b1ask1]

I was using my DeWalt drill a couple of days back. It's good enough for me. Owned it for a couple of years. Never realised it had a batter indicator on the back

C

a batter indicator? Best hope it meets CODs

 

[CatmanV2]

a batter indicator? Best hope it meets CODs

+y

C

 

[mjheathcote]

Still only have one drill at home, a corded Black & Decker I bought back in '86.
Been well abused too, just keeps on going!

 

[lozcb]

Still only have one drill at home, a corded Black & Decker I bought back in '86.
Been well abused too, just keeps on going!

That killer screeching sound when its on hammer is an ear and teeth muncher

 

[jasst]

Used to always use Bosch industrial for all my power tools, converted to DeWalt several years ago, and can't fault them, never used to rate Makita, son uses DeWalt and son in law Makita, but yes Milwaukee are gaining in popularity.

 

[allandwf]

I was using my DeWalt drill a couple of days back. It's good enough for me. Owned it for a couple of years. Never realised it had a batter indicator on the back

C

I've had my 24v Percussion DeWalt drill for close to 20 years now, and it has been used hard. I had to replace the two batteries about 5 years ago as stopped taking a charge and flagged as faulty on the charger, not cheap but can't complain.

 

[rossyl]

I've pleasantly surprised that the xenophobia has been somewhat tempered.

The number of times on this thread the term "The Chinese" has been used is hilarious!
Are they all the same, think the same, produce the same...they're robots?

Are we "The English" or "the British" all the same?
Does having one British builder guarantee quality, compared to all others?
Does one British carpenter guarantee quality compared to all others?

Sweeping generalisations, should be swept straight into the dustbin, where they belong.

Quality can come from anywhere, just look for it and pay the price.

If you are buying cheap tat...well, you've made the decision and bought cheap tat!

If Lotus are built to the same standard as a Chinese Volvo, they'll be better than the British

Here's another generalisation...

British Lotus =

L ots
O f
T rouble
U sually
S erious

Chinese Volvo = Quality

 

[rockits]

I've pleasantly surprised that the xenophobia has been somewhat tempered.

The number of times on this thread the term "The Chinese" has been used is hilarious!
Are they all the same, think the same, produce the same...they're robots?

Are we "The English" or "the British" all the same?
Does having one British builder guarantee quality, compared to all others?
Does one British carpenter guarantee quality compared to all others?

Sweeping generalisations, should be swept straight into the dustbin, where they belong.

Quality can come from anywhere, just look for it and pay the price.

If you are buying cheap tat...well, you've made the decision and bought cheap tat!

If Lotus are built to the same standard as a Chinese Volvo, they'll be better than the British

Here's another generalisation...

British Lotus =

L ots
O f
T rouble
U sually
S erious

Chinese Volvo = Quality

I generally like your posts and often have much in common with your viewpoints. I have no idea what that post was, what it means and what the point was though.

I am not aware of many Chinese products that have a name, brand or are known for quality. We have to generalise to a point as we have no other detailed or further information to say otherwise. There are many countries around the world that are well known for certain things. Most of what China make is made there because they offer to do it cheap or cheaper than many others. Thet mainly don't do quality. If they do it is in a minority or I am ignorantly unaware of it.

If I were getting a building designed I would look to the UK for an architect and engineers, if I wanted a quality car I would look to Germany, if I wanted a top kitchen I might look to Italy. I am sure there are tons more. I would never look to China for any of these things and more.

We have no way of knowing when we buy something if it is good quality or not. If I am looking for something and two things are made in China but one is £50 and one is £100 I wouldn't automatically think the £100 one is better. All we know is where it is made when we look to buy. China's reputation proceeds it as a producer of cheap products as historically that is what it has produced. China created this.....nobody else.

To now try to change that will be very very difficult. I might be missing out on a whole load of good quality stuff made in China with my ongoing quest to buy better quality stuff. I'll take my chances though.

I am starting to have some issues with trust now. Not just with China but in lots of places. Trump is a lier.....quite blatantly. It is very hard to believe and trust so many these days which is a really sorry state of affairs. China has a reputation and is doing nothing to change this.

 

[rossyl]

Dean I think there's a few layers to your thoughts.

Firstly, Chinese quality.

There are plenty of items that the Chinese make that are quality, world leading.

Top of my head...
Mobile Phones - One Plus
High Speed Trains - they are the world leaders
At an industrial level, plastics and oil products.

Further numerous parts, that then go into the making other products - Apple products being a good example.

There's quality out there. It's just maybe we won't be obviously exposed.


Secondly, consumer Chinese tat

They are the manufacturing centre of the world. They are used for creating everything. That means quality and tat.

Electric batteries in a Tesla - Expensive & Quality
Fidget Spinners - Cheap tat.

Point being it is what importers choose to buy and bring in.

Tesla could most likely get a Chinese company to produce a battery at the same quality level as the battery you bought for your Dyson. Or, they could build a world-leading battery. It's up to the company placing the order.

The Chinese could build you a titanium indestructible fidget spinner, if you ordered it and paid for it.

China have the people and manufacturing capabilities to produce quality or tat.

Further, it is up to the importers to ensure quality.

The cheap batteries, the cheap tat, the importers want to buy as much as possible, they think quantity not quality. Chinese factories are cheaper and willing to produce what the client orders.


Thirdly, what the UK public want

If I'm selling an expensive quality Chinese made Dyson replacement battery, but UK consumers are buying the cheap tat. As a seller, I'll start selling the tat as well.

The success of Primark in the UK is evidence of a love of low quality.


Fourth, capitalist culture

The greed if some sellers means they will want to sell you the lowest priced item, for the highest price. The quality might fall at the wayside.


Fifth, blaming all of that on China is unfair

I don't think I need say more in this point.
The UK want cheap tat. Importers order and sell cheap tat. The Chinese factories produce that, based on the demand for that cheap tat. If the UK demanded high quality, the Chinese would produce that - like they do for other items.

The Brits have made some great cars and some absolutely awful. That could be said for many products. Some architecture is a disaster, entire buildings barely 30 years old being knocked down is evidence of this. Buying British is no guarantee of quality, so your plans may not yield the result you are after.


Lastly, xenophobia

That was mentioned in reference to the thread in general.

Not every Chinese person is the same. I can't believe I need to type that out.

Not every British person is the same. Some I'd be happy to be compared to, others not so much. I go travelling a lot, I don't behave like a "Brit abroad".

In my view, I'd always buy what seems like the best, no matter where it comes from.

Unfortunately, that usually means not buying British.

 

[rockits]

I get your points and can understand many. This globalisation and the down sides we now face are of course not a China only issue. It is a global issue of course by its nature to everything it opposes to localisation.

In the main the quality levels have reduced across the board. Even high quality electronic items are not really high quality. Often you will still get dry solder joints as the PCB's, the processes and solder used etc. are of reduced quality compared to what they could be if the product was a true high quality item. Bang & Olufson TV's were reknown years ago for the quality of PCB's, capacitors, solder and processes that created a true high quality product that would outlast most other competitive products. They were more expensive but for good reason.

I don't often see alternative substantially increased quality items at higher prices in many areas.

Our misguided desire for newer and 'better' electronics is a real problem and drives our often materialistic disposal society. Do we really need 4k, 8k TV's? Not really. Do we need a new mobile phone every year? Not really. Apple and the likes rely on their consumers buying the latest and greatest each year. However the invisible damage it does is great.

The Apple thing is often misconstrued though. An iPhone is designed in the US and all the components mainly manufactured all over the world but not in China. In the main the iPhone is only assembled and packaged in China.

As long as they don't start exporting their food!

Yes, if we demand a new mobile each year to gain very little in reality over the replacement item that often then sites in a drawer and/orany end up in landfill at some point. Half the issue is the screen is cracked or battery knackered. It is a nightmare to replace it so it is used as a point to replace. If the screen and/or battery were costs effective or easy to change or they were longer lasting in the first place we wouldn't need a replacement product.

It is indeed a multi layered issue but our current attitudes and path is one that ends with a brick wall. Let's start making some changes when and where we can.

 

[lozcb]

I've pleasantly surprised that the xenophobia has been somewhat tempered.

The number of times on this thread the term "The Chinese" has been used is hilarious!
Are they all the same, think the same, produce the same...they're robots?

Are we "The English" or "the British" all the same?
Does having one British builder guarantee quality, compared to all others?
Does one British carpenter guarantee quality compared to all others?

Sweeping generalisations, should be swept straight into the dustbin, where they belong.

Quality can come from anywhere, just look for it and pay the price.

If you are buying cheap tat...well, you've made the decision and bought cheap tat!

If Lotus are built to the same standard as a Chinese Volvo, they'll be better than the British

Here's another generalisation...

British Lotus =

L ots
O f
T rouble
U sually
S erious

Chinese Volvo = Quality

I can only assume you have never walked round the market places in Africa and the Middle east and Asia , to see what Chinese tat is forced upon the ROW , agreed in UK and Europe we do tend to have a deminishing choice , but that choice is being eroded by the sheer fact of our own ability to produce and manufacture, Most of the ROW dont have that choice , and there is zero accountability regards product quality , as in there are no warranties or sale of goods act that applies because of the distance factor,
We (as in the western world ) need to start to implement changes to reverse and create or more balanced manufacturing base , and in regard to UK specifically, undo what being a member of the EU has done to the UK manufacturing base over a 30-35 year period.

In regards to any racial generalised terms as to where this current crisis originated or perpetuated as in (China) and or the (Chinese) we are all adults and aware that people 99% of the time are referring to the CCP as the main issue and not the average Chinese citizen . I sense a bit of wokeness creeping in there , something else thats crept in to our society and must be eradicated is the ability to call out a spade when it is a fecking spade which is why Trump is such a necessary tool in this present era .

 

[allandwf]

I think one point has been missed, built in obsolescence. No matter where, or by whom, something is built, it has that built in. This was not always the case,especially white goods etc.

 

[lozcb]

I think one point has been missed, built in obsolescence. No matter where, or by whom, something is built, it has that built in. This was not always the case,especially white goods etc.

Agreed fecking printers , printers have been the bain of my life , i have heard it rumoured from staff at Staples office furniture that they are programmed to expire and give trouble according to their cost price or level in the market place , i never seem to have one longer than a year , in the last 10 years , my previous ones used to last a darn site longer