Defacing Statues

[MarkMas]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268898468766134279

This post is challenging some facts and actions.
I fear the lack of arrests and codemnation for some of the behaviour (though not most) will set a precedent going forward from now on for the fringes of these events.
Hopefully some good will come out of the peaceful protests with discussions on how (if even possible) to move forward and I would be interested to hear what those people have to say in an open unpredjudiced discussion.

The twitter post (easy read version here) doesn't seem to me to be about 'some of the behaviour', but is mostly criticising the very idea of having a campaign to try to stop black people being killed. (And indeed conflating the protests and the criminal acts is in itself very often an attempt (unconscious or deliberate) to de-ligitimise the reasons for the protests.)

This sort of argument is very common, and while the post kinda sounds like it is calling for equity, it is really just seeking to sideline the issue. Let's keep in mind that BLM is basically a shorthand for 'black people are frequently being killed by white cops', not a shorthand for 'only black lives matter'.
So:

• To say 'but all lives matter' is true, but irrelevant.
• To say 'but black people kill black people' might be true but it is irrelevant.
• To say 'but black people kill white people' might be true but it is irrelevant.
• To say 'but black people are over-represented within the police force' might be true but it is irrelevant.
• etc etc

And its not just an irrelevant challenge to the idea that maybe cops should not be killing so many black people, but you have to ask yourself WHY are people carefully making these points to try to undermine BLM.

• Did you EVER hear someone say, "I'm not giving money to Save the Children, because adults need saving too"?
  
  
• Did you EVER hear someone say, "Why do we only hear from the Stroke Association when someone has a stroke, not a heart attack"?
  
  
• Did you EVER hear someone say to a firefighter hosing down a burning house, "But my house matters too!"?
  

And if you DID, would you think they were positively working to try to make things more fair, or would you think they were just trying to undermine the thing they were complaining about?

 

[midlifecrisis]

There's a nice statue of Abe Lincoln in Manchester, why it's there is anyone's guess. As a city, we all know Manchester was cottonopolis and used raw cotton from the plantations of the South. During the US civil war, the US Navy blockaded the South and starved Manchester if its raw material and Lancashire mills were silent. Some historians report that Confederate flags flew on the Mills to garner support for the Royal Navy to break the blockade. It never happened. Eventually trade started again, but the inscription reads that it is dedicated to: "the support that the working people of Manchester gave in their fight for the abolition of slavery during the American Civil War.......By supporting the union under President Lincoln at a time when there was an economic blockade of the southern states the Lancashire cotton workers were denied access to raw cotton which caused considerable unemployment throughout the cotton industry."
So twisted history conveniently rewritten?

 

[Delmonte]

Agreed , values have changed so that we consider ourselves above all that now , but the truth is its still going on especially in the Middle east and Africa owning of slaves and making a profit out of the fruits of their labour , and I dont like the term (In celebration of ) given to the erection of a statue .........................its in recognition of their contribution , not a celebration, 2 totally different things in the dictionary

You wouldn't find a statue of Pablo Escobar or El Chapo Guzman ( they didnt exactly do much good for their communities in general did they to be recognised , whereas as Churchill and Colston did , albeit off the backs of others efforts,

In another 100 years it'll probably be the liberal view that working for Ford or Nissan or any company that makes a profit of others backs will be considered a slave trader lol ..........................its all of a time and an era where its considered the norm , as the pharoahs did, the chinese did the romans did, the incas/Aztecs did before the whites did , its history and impossible to erase ,

But ultimately Loz, using your logic that you can’t and shouldn’t change history, should the statues of Stalin, Saddam, Gadaffi, been pulled down or not? (Plenty of Russians will tell that in their opinion, Stalin did much for their country)

 

[Oneball]

But ultimately Loz, using your logic that you can’t and shouldn’t change history, should the statues of Stalin, Saddam, Gadaffi, been pulled down or not? (Plenty of Russians will tell that in their opinion, Stalin did much for their country)

Most Stalin statues were removed pretty soon after he died, for political reasons, nowt to do with what he did or didn’t do and long before the USSR folded. Stangely enough or not depending on your view many are going back up, again for political reasons.

 

[lozcb]

What i was trying to expose more than whether i am in agreement with what they did , was to expose the hypocracy of their argument and reasons for pulling down and defacing the statues. had they decreed initially that their aim is to take them all down including the pyramids/ terracotta warrior /great wall / roman /greek sites etc then their basis for doing what they did was sound , but nothing has been mentioned about that , its purely directed at european/american white populus and because of that their argument has a serious flaw , which begs a totally different agenda ..............strange one this

 

[Phil H]

There's a monument near me that causes no end of problems, but no one will remove it....

Bl00dy Stonehenge

PH

 

[Delmonte]

Most Stalin statues were removed pretty soon after he died, for political reasons, nowt to do with what he did or didn’t do and long before the USSR folded. Stangely enough or not depending on your view many are going back up, again for political reasons.

I know. Putin is trying to resurrect his reputation. And (I think) he has always been highly thought of in Georgia.
I was interested to know Lozs view on whether they should have stayed up, if ‘you can’t / shouldn’t change’ history’ still applies to those you dislike / are foreign/ or you politically disagree with

 

[Delmonte]

There's a monument near me that causes no end of problems, but no one will remove it....

Bl00dy Stonehenge

PH

Monumental stupidity

 

[Delmonte]

What i was trying to expose more than whether i am in agreement with what they did , was to expose the hypocracy of their argument and reasons for pulling down and defacing the statues. had they decreed initially that their aim is to take them all down including the pyramids/ terracotta warrior /great wall / roman /greek sites etc then their basis for doing what they did was sound , but nothing has been mentioned about that , its purely directed at european/american white populus and because of that their argument has a serious flaw , which begs a totally different agenda ..............strange one this

Do you think the big difference with the sites you mention is the sheer epic time difference involved? 200 hundred years versus several thousand? And ignorance? I’ve visited the Terracotta Army, and I had no idea it was built by slaves, I doubt most others have either

 

[Phil H]

Monumental stupidity

Yep, Mr Pendragon and his 'ancestors' have a lot to answer for; have you seen the traffic in the summer months, I mean why on earth did they put a pile of stones right alongside the A303?

 

[lozcb]

Yep, Mr Pendragon and his 'ancestors' have a lot to answer for; have you seen the traffic in the summer months, I mean why on earth did they put a pile of stones right alongside the A303?

 

[lozcb]

I know. Putin is trying to resurrect his reputation. And (I think) he has always been highly thought of in Georgia.
I was interested to know Lozs view on whether they should have stayed up, if ‘you can’t / shouldn’t change’ history’ still applies to those you dislike / are foreign/ or you politically disagree with

Most definitely, it was a reflection of history of that time whether good or bad , now had they danced around and held vigils close to the statues in so called " Celebation " then that would be a different matter , but fom the little i know they were to recognise the persons achievements good or bad , there were those of that time that obviously thought some good was done by him

 

[MarkMas]

What i was trying to expose more than whether i am in agreement with what they did , was to expose the hypocracy of their argument and reasons for pulling down and defacing the statues. had they decreed initially that their aim is to take them all down including the pyramids/ terracotta warrior /great wall / roman /greek sites etc then their basis for doing what they did was sound , but nothing has been mentioned about that , its purely directed at european/american white populus and because of that their argument has a serious flaw , which begs a totally different agenda ..............strange one this

Going back to the 'black lives matter' vs 'all lives matter' issue, I don't really feel that there really is a requirement that people are consistent (and thorough) about this. If a black person in Bristol felt that their oppression was symbolised by having to pass a statue of Colston every day, they might campaign (or even act) to have it removed, and their friends might even help them. Why should they be required to also care about how ANZACs feel about a statue of Churchill or how Greeks might feel about a statue of Xerxes? Caring about the thing that affects you is not necessarily invalidated just because someone thinks that it is inconsistent, unequal, hypocritical or sinister. It might (for some reason) infuriate, but it does not (it seems to me) invalidate.

 

[lozcb]

Going back to the 'black lives matter' vs 'all lives matter' issue, I don't really feel that there really is a requirement that people are consistent (and thorough) about this. If a black person in Bristol felt that their oppression was symbolised by having to pass a statue of Colston every day, they might campaign (or even act) to have it removed, and their friends might even help them. Why should they be required to also care about how ANZACs feel about a statue of Churchill or how Greeks might feel about a statue of Xerxes? Caring about the thing that affects you is not necessarily invalidated just because someone thinks that it is inconsistent, unequal, hypocritical or sinister. It might (for some reason) infuriate, but it does not (it seems to me) invalidate.

Then quite simply Mark they walk a different route and take a small detour if it bothers them that much, rocket science it isnt , taking the actions they took has cost the tax payer countless £1000's in reparations and policing , lets see how they will react with that letter posted through their letterbox when requested to pay for said policing and damages

 

[MarkMas]

Then quite simply Mark they walk a different route and take a small detour if it bothers them that much, rocket science it isnt , taking the actions they took has cost the tax payer countless £1000's in reparations and policing , lets see how they will react with that letter posted through their letterbox when requested to pay for said policing and damages

Yeah, I suppose I was arguing not about what you actually wrote, "hypocracy of their argument and reasons for pulling down and defacing the statues", but what I thought you were saying "hypocracy of their argument and reasons for" [wanting those statues to be removed]. Sorry.

But I think it is important to separate these issues. It gets sticky if anyone conflates the 'damage' problem with the 'racial injustice' problem, as if playing one card will trump the other .

So my argument is still that someone campaigning to vote to have Colston removed is not undermined by the argument that if they are not campaigning just as hard about Churchill and Xerxes, they are being hypocritical and should be dismissed or silenced.

Violent acts and damage are completely different matters.

I'm also generally in favour of your principle that if something bothers you, just take a small detour. BUT as I have started to listen to black people tell their stories, I'm less willing to demand this sort of thing from them. The perceived hurt and the actual oppression are both very real, and to say 'hey just get over it' does not seem to me to be an adequate response any more.

 

[lozcb]

Yeah, I suppose I was arguing not about what you actually wrote, "hypocracy of their argument and reasons for pulling down and defacing the statues", but what I thought you were saying "hypocracy of their argument and reasons for" [wanting those statues to be removed]. Sorry.

But I think it is important to separate these issues. It gets sticky if anyone conflates the 'damage' problem with the 'racial injustice' problem, as if playing one card will trump the other .

So my argument is still that someone campaigning to vote to have Colston removed is not undermined by the argument that if they are not campaigning just as hard about Churchill and Xerxes, they are being hypocritical and should be dismissed or silenced.

Violent acts and damage are completely different matters.

I'm also generally in favour of your principle that if something bothers you, just take a small detour. BUT as I have started to listen to black people tell their stories, I'm less willing to demand this sort of thing from them. The perceived hurt and the actual oppression are both very real, and to say 'hey just get over it' does not seem to me to be an adequate response any more.

The perceived hurt and the actual oppression are both very real, and to say 'hey just get over it' does not seem to me to be an adequate response any more ,

Im not advocating pecieved hurt isnt real in some form or another, rather its over playing and overstating it to sound worse that what it is , almost as if its a good enough reason not to succeed or setting themselves up from failing, without doubt the problem is greater in the US than in UK or Europe , but im fed up to the teeth of our liberal left self flagellating woke section indoctrinating the younger generation to feel guilty for acts of there great grandfathers etc..........and to a degree its working on them because they as most younger generations are despondent and looking to follow a radical cause ............in my day it was banning the bomb or be a hippy for free love. Both bizzare to our elders at the time and anti establishment

 

[rockits]

I do find this being offended by anything issue getting a bit over the top sometimes in our modern world. I'm not talking about the statue just what people find offensive.

I find a 1st gen Panamera offensive but I'm not calling for it to be removed from the planet. I just wouldn't buy one and try no to look at one for too long if one crosses my path.

How many people does this statue offend every day compared to how many people like it? Whatever the reason why.

Sometimes I like and dislike something without knowing why necessarily or knowing any underlying reason if there was one. Does everything always have to have such a deep meaning? To everyone?

Forgive my ignorance and lack or academic intellect but I never knew who Colston was or anything about him. I had to Google it like I do lots of things every day.

 

[Koz]

I do find this being offended by anything issue getting a bit over the top sometimes in our modern world. I'm not talking about the statue just what people find offensive.

I find a 1st gen Panamera offensive but I'm not calling for it to be removed from the planet. I just wouldn't buy one and try no to look at one for too long if one crosses my path.

How many people does this statue offend every day compared to how many people like it? Whatever the reason why.

Sometimes I like and dislike something without knowing why necessarily or knowing any underlying reason if there was one. Does everything always have to have such a deep meaning? To everyone?

Forgive my ignorance and lack or academic intellect but I never knew who Colston was or anything about him. I had to Google it like I do lots of things every day.

I for one am highly offended........as that was my car

 

[BennyD]

It’s also a case of the hard left organising protests that dissolve into riots, especially when it comes to rewriting history or erasing British history. Let us not forget that the Brits were responsible for transporting the slaves, the Africans themselves were largely responsible for abducting and selling them to Western traders. The Americans were largely responsible for buying them.

 

[rockits]

I for one am highly offended........as that was my car
View attachment 71185

Ah my eyes! Only joking....it ain't that bad but is no looker for sure. Bet it drives well and the good thing is you don't see the outside from the inside anyway.

I like the fact it exists as creates healthy debate and reminds us what a beautiful car is and looks like. Mmm....maybe like a statue could create healthy debate....oh silly me....it just creates violance and criminal activity.