CAR AUCTIONS

[Nayf]

I would love an F12 even more; just ain't got the means! One day!!!

Is the 612 fun to drive or a bit too grown up?

I'd view the 612 as a bigger 4200, rather than a GranSport. It rides much better than a GS, for starters.
While it'll never have the dynamism of a mid-engined Ferrari or even a 550, it is surprisingly sporty and a finer handling car that you would imagine. Aluminium construction and the engine so far back in the chassis contribute to this – arguably to the detriment of the looks (though I now love the way it looks).
That being said you can tell the difference between an early and late F1A car.
The early cars are more GT-feeling, with smaller wheels and bigger tyre sidewall. The later cars have snappier, faster gearshifts and bigger wheels and smaller sidewalls (they also look better, due to bigger wheels).
I found it does a remarkable job of hiding its weight and girth, and handles much better than a DBS and certainly a Continental GT, and it's all down to the engine packaging. It's also much roomier inside than the Aston, and on a par with the Bentley.
It's not as pretty as the Aston, mind.

 

[vhomotors]

FOR SALE!!! 2003 Maserati 4200 GT (M138) Spyder​

Car Auction: https://vhomotors.com/auctions/ca4775bf-f876-49e3-833f-fdb9468470ac

 

[midlifecrisis]

FOR SALE!!! 2003 Maserati 4200 GT (M138) Spyder​

Car Auction: https://vhomotors.com/auctions/ca4775bf-f876-49e3-833f-fdb9468470ac

Welcome to the forum...

 

[Guy]

I would love an F12 even more; just ain't got the means! One day!!!

Is the 612 fun to drive or a bit too grown up?

Gus, I think you need to target 80k plus for a good 612 (post '06 much better cars) and I suspect F12s are getting close to 90s now? I loved my 612 but it's not the same 'fun' as a true sports car. It is very well balanced (front mid engine), deceptively quick, sonorous but more 'grown up'. Then there is the pride of ownership and the quality - especially the interior. It was a joy to own but better on a longer open run than a 90 min Sunday morning blast. Horses for courses and that's why I believe after well over 70 cars you need a few to cover the bases! Perhaps 4 or 5 can do it but I guess it depends on life style. I live in the country and need more than 2 seats quite often so the 612 made more sense than a 599 or 430.

On a separate note, I drove a 2005 Cayman S today for the first time - what a great car and for not a lot of cash! I Might be tempted to go Boxster for the added fun of the open roof but another great flavour of driving. I would also like an Alpine to experience 1100kg handling and braking or a Caterham (but that would be selfish as my wife would never join me!). With the advent of enforced EVs during the next 20 years, we really should make the most of it. A V12 Ferrari being one of the top options!

 

[Guy]

I'd view the 612 as a bigger 4200, rather than a GranSport. It rides much better than a GS, for starters.
While it'll never have the dynamism of a mid-engined Ferrari or even a 550, it is surprisingly sporty and a finer handling car that you would imagine. Aluminium construction and the engine so far back in the chassis contribute to this – arguably to the detriment of the looks (though I now love the way it looks).
That being said you can tell the difference between an early and late F1A car.
The early cars are more GT-feeling, with smaller wheels and bigger tyre sidewall. The later cars have snappier, faster gearshifts and bigger wheels and smaller side wheels (they also look better, due to bigger wheels).
I found it does a remarkable job of hiding its weight and girth, and handles much better than a DBS and certainly a Continental GT, and it's all down to the engine packaging. It's also much roomier inside than the Aston, and on a par with the Bentley.
It's not as pretty as the Aston, mind.

We are definitely aligned Nate! They do look much better in the flesh and I would not consider an Aston or Bentley as an alternative.
BTW my wife never stops complaining about the ride in the GS! 612 spoilt her!

 

[Nayf]

We are definitely aligned Nate! They do look much better in the flesh and I would not consider an Aston or Bentley as an alternative.
BTW my wife never stops complaining about the ride in the GS! 612 spoilt her!

It is quite shocking how rough the GS is, though at the current age of them different cars will be different due to use.
The GS was always meant to be more hardcore in the manner of the MC Stradale or MC Victory, but according to Frank Stephenson Ferrari demanded that it be made to be more GT like as it was a bit too good.
Only problem was that the GS suspension work had been done and paid for, while the steering racks hadn’t.
It’s why - despite what the part numbers might say (we’ve discussed this before on here) - the steering rack in the MC V transforms the feel compared to the standard GS. I’ve a theory is that the steering racks were those originally designed for the GS anyway, before the eventual items used were chosen. The MC Victory was a way of using up the stock.
Then again I believe someone had a rack with the MC V part number in his late model 4200, so it could have been a case of ‘what bits do we have left?’ When the very last 4200/GS cars were made.
It goes some way to explain why the GS is hardcore suspension wise, but oddly remote in terms of steering feel. Still love a GS, mind, but just never drive an MCV hard if you own a standard one, spoils you. Same with the M3 CS/CSL E46 vs the standard E46 M3.

This might all sound preposterous to anyone used to German marques but there was an interesting post on LinkedIn from a former Lotus manager illustrating the sometimes precarious nature of parts and components supply, particularly low volume marques. I’ll see if I can find it.

 

[Guy]

It is quite shocking how rough the GS is, though at the current age of them different cars will be different due to use.
The GS was always meant to be more hardcore in the manner of the MC Stradale or MC Victory, but according to Frank Stephenson Ferrari demanded that it be made to be more GT like as it was a bit too good.
Only problem was that the GS suspension work had been done and paid for, while the steering racks hadn’t.
It’s why - despite what the part numbers might say (we’ve discussed this before on here) - the steering rack in the MC V transforms the feel compared to the standard GS. I’ve a theory is that the steering racks were those originally designed for the GS anyway, before the eventual items used were chosen. The MC Victory was a way of using up the stock.
Then again I believe someone had a rack with the MC V part number in his late model 4200, so it could have been a case of ‘what bits do we have left?’ When the very last 4200/GS cars were made.
It goes some way to explain why the GS is hardcore suspension wise, but oddly remote in terms of steering feel. Still love a GS, mind, but just never drive an MCV hard if you own a standard one, spoils you. Same with the M3 CS/CSL E46 vs the standard E46 M3.

This might all sound preposterous to anyone used to German marques but there was an interesting post on LinkedIn from a former Lotus manager illustrating the sometimes precarious nature of parts and components supply, particularly low volume marques. I’ll see if I can find it.

Interesting background. My GS has only done 30k miles and has been serviced annually by the same MD with everything done on the button so I think it is as good as they can be at this age. Mine rides well in non Sport setting but the gearchange is then too slow and doesn't 'blip' on downshifts. I don't mind the ride most of the time but it is pretty harsh on poor surfaces. I consider my steering super sharp, much quicker than my Strad so steers beautifully. Perhaps mine has one of those racks (it is an '07 LE).

 

[Nayf]

Interesting background. My GS has only done 30k miles and has been serviced annually by the same MD with everything done on the button so I think it is as good as they can be at this age. Mine rides well in non Sport setting but the gearchange is then too slow and doesn't 'blip' on downshifts. I don't mind the ride most of the time but it is pretty harsh on poor surfaces. I consider my steering super sharp, much quicker than my Strad so steers beautifully. Perhaps mine has one of those racks (it is an '07 LE).

There's all sorts of odd things throughout the industry really, and not just the usual /becauseItalian. Some examples of the Ford Focus RS Mk1 have more special bits on than others, for example (ahem) – Ford made a loss on each one, so you can imagine what happened...

It does make me laugh when you see what Land Rover types would call 'rivet counters' losing their **** about a bit of trim being out of place or not what the records say, particularly for UK-market Italian cars. The Prodrive Brera, for example: it wasn't an even split of 3.2 vs 2.2, and there's a fair few (20 or so, IIRC) that have the styling but not the upgraded brakes and suspension, because someone forgot to fit the bits when they landed in the UK. Or the Alfa Romeo 147 Ducati Corse cars that are 2.0-litre petrol Selespeeds rather than the diesels the UK market got; they were on the boat to the Far East with a load of 156 and 147 GTA Selespeeds, when one caught fire and the cars came back to the UK and were sold a good three or four years after they were actually built.
I guess for such people 'rightness' is a comfort...

 

[philw696]

@Guy I'm into my 5th year of having a 987.1 Boxster S and rate it as one of the Best cars I've had especially for the cash you spend buying and maintaining it.
Build quality is something else being German and back then the quality was so much better.
I've scratched the itch with the F cars with a 456 my first and then a 360 and having had two 4200 would love another or QPV.

 

[Guy]

@Guy I'm into my 5th year of having a 987.1 Boxster S and rate it as one of the Best cars I've had especially for the cash you spend buying and maintaining it.
Build quality is something else being German and back then the quality was so much better.
I've scratched the itch with the F cars with a 456 my first and then a 360 and having had two 4200 would love another or QPV.

Thanks Phil, that's good to read. I stopped buying 911s after the 993 so have never owned a 996/7 or Boxster/Cayman. In the UK, they are so cheap now it seems a great place to park c10k on a small relatively light sports car pre all the nannying tech.

 

[Mattmaser]

Thanks Phil, that's good to read. I stopped buying 911s after the 993 so have never owned a 996/7 or Boxster/Cayman. In the UK, they are so cheap now it seems a great place to park c10k on a small relatively light sports car pre all the nannying tech.

I’ve got a Gen 2 2.9 Cayman manual , love it - doesn’t have “Italian flair “ but it’s really solid , quick enough , does 37 mpg on a run and importantly it’s turn key reliable , and easy to own.

 

[urquattrogus]

Interesting background. My GS has only done 30k miles and has been serviced annually by the same MD with everything done on the button so I think it is as good as they can be at this age. Mine rides well in non Sport setting but the gearchange is then too slow and doesn't 'blip' on downshifts. I don't mind the ride most of the time but it is pretty harsh on poor surfaces. I consider my steering super sharp, much quicker than my Strad so steers beautifully. Perhaps mine has one of those racks (it is an '07 LE).

I have a 2007 car too, May 2007 registered, and the steering has really impressed me, probably got the standard rack but will have a look for any numbers on it next time I have the car on the ramp. I think I do have slightly tweaked geometry though which might help.

Ferrari ownership remains a long time away in honesty, I would have to sell a couple of other cars and borrow, still the dream, Along with a huge list of other stuff!

I like the idea of an Alpine too, I think most Petrolheads do!

The Cayman and Boxster do look like bargains but I’ve always been a bit put off by how ubiquitous they are and mostly the tales of engine woe such as bore scoring and other stuff. For the first time ever I got close to buying a Porsche, a 996 3.4 Carrera 2, but once I started looking at Gransport’s there wasn’t really much contest! Much more special feeling as we know.

 

[c4sman]

As a serial 987/997 owner (19 years since I ordered a brand new 987 Boxster S) I have to agree with the above comments. They definitely lack the drama and presence of the key Italian marques but they bring something different which is why I have both. My current 997 is nothing special on a gentle cruise. Where it blows me away is the more I push it on track or road, the more it ups it’s game in terms of handling and thrills, never running out of ideas and capability, just feeing more and more like I would imagine a race car to feel the harder you push. And then as you cruise home after being on track or a country road blast, it settles into being as taxing as a golf GTI with no warning lights, no cooked tires and brakes and nothing broken or needing attention. I actually also think the 987 boxster and cayman offer more character in day to day normal driving than a 997 with the flat six soundtrack inches from your head, they are very involving at road legal ish speeds.

 

[Guy]

As a serial 987/997 owner (19 years since I ordered a brand new 987 Boxster S) I have to agree with the above comments. They definitely lack the drama and presence of the key Italian marques but they bring something different which is why I have both. My current 997 is nothing special on a gentle cruise. Where it blows me away is the more I push it on track or road, the more it ups it’s game in terms of handling and thrills, never running out of ideas and capability, just feeing more and more like I would imagine a race car to feel the harder you push. And then as you cruise home after being on track or a country road blast, it settles into being as taxing as a golf GTI with no warning lights, no cooked tires and brakes and nothing broken or needing attention. I actually also think the 987 boxster and cayman offer more character in day to day normal driving than a 997 with the flat six soundtrack inches from your head, they are very involving at road legal ish speeds.

Thanks for the insight. I always remember my old 911s always felt better after long flat out blasts and certainly not tired like M cars do in the tyre and brake dept! I am looking at the Boxster as another different flavour of motoring. I have to be careful not to talk my way up to a 981as it is supposed to be a cheap purchase but equally wary of the IMS bill if I get it wrong.

 

[rs48635]

Interesting chat as ever. Now looking up to Boxster when my mx5 passes critical sill oxidation levels.
The bigger F-cars were always my goal, mainly the V12 itch. No longer sure the noise is worth the wallet evacuation. There are plenty of amazing V8 sounds to try yet. And smaller 4 and 6 pot cars to gallop cross-country.
The QPV is pretty good insulation against any Sport GT offering 4 seats.

 

[philw696]

@Guy the IMS bearing is nothing to worry about and bore score seems to affect the 3.4s.
I did hours of research before buying my 05 987.1 far more than when buying my first Maserati or Ferrari.
There's a lot of keyboard warriors out there spouting doom and gloom with Porsche Boxsters.
Only annoyance I've had was a oil leak and flat 6 motors can suffer with those.
Presumed it was the rear main seal but when the box was out it was the IMS seals.
Renewed those and two years on perfect.
Inspected the bearing which was perfect left alone and put back together.
Again can't rate the car highly enough.

 

[urquattrogus]

I thought it was mostly internet hype, and highly annecdotal I know, but when a work collegue has bore score needing a complete rebuild on his 997S and another guy I know with a 996 3.4 both had to have full rebuilds I started to wonder! The guy with the 996 went for a Hartage Rebuild, he said there were 12 997 Gen 1's in for engine rebuild at the time I know that it's the go to place in the UK, but still...

Before the Gransport I had a Z3M Coupe with S50B32 Engine, pretty robust by all accounts and again another reason at the time for not going Porsche.

Having said that I do delight in not buying Porsche like others, one day maybe I'll get it, no doubt starting with an impressive drive of one of their better cars.

My father tried to test drive both a new Cayman R and a used 997 Turbo a few years ago at OPC centres, we were mucked about royally with both appointments and made to wait for a long time, never got to drive either and just gave up in the end. In fairness with the Cayman R supposedly someone bought it 5 mins before we arrived.... Instead Dad had a go in a 2.9 PDK Cayman, not exactly comparable.

All this leads me to some overall feeling of Porsche people having some unwelcoming brand snobbery if I'm honest. Maybe I've made my own issue here.... Maybe the main subliminal issue being I'd love a GT3 just like many others but always out of reach!

 

[Ewan]

If you are looking to buy a 996 or 997.1 (or equivalent age Boxster/Cayman), buy one which has already had the engine rebuilt. It's easy to do, as loads have been done over the last 20 years.

Or, better still, buy a 997.2 (or a 996 with a Metzger engine such as the turbo or the GT3). Though these three options will all cost more for the obvious reason.

 

[Swedish Paul]

@Guy the IMS bearing is nothing to worry about and bore score seems to affect the 3.4s.
I did hours of research before buying my 05 987.1 far more than when buying my first Maserati or Ferrari.
There's a lot of keyboard warriors out there spouting doom and gloom with Porsche Boxsters.
Only annoyance I've had was a oil leak and flat 6 motors can suffer with those.
Presumed it was the rear main seal but when the box was out it was the IMS seals.
Renewed those and two years on perfect.
Inspected the bearing which was perfect left alone and put back together.
Again can't rate the car highly enough.

Apparently, the bore scoring is caused by not letting the engine and oil get up to temperature before revving to the red line.
In my old GS, I never gave it full beans until hot. I suppose a flat 6 rebuild is considerably cheaper than a V8 Italian.

 

[c4sman]

Apparently, the bore scoring is caused by not letting the engine and oil get up to temperature before revving to the red line.
In my old GS, I never gave it full beans until hot. I suppose a flat 6 rebuild is considerably cheaper than a V8 Italian.

Afraid I disagree. Having been close to the M96/M97 engines for a while the issues are real and not purely down to abuse during warm up. There are examples of careful owners from new having bore score at 7000 miles replaced by Porsche under warranty only to have the second engine go at 30k ish miles of careful warm up. The issue is real and down to a design flaw. Hartech are the experts with the issue and I have 2 mates with new Hartech engines (one a 996 C4S who’s IMS let go and the other a 997 Carrera 3.6 with bore score). For many years I put it down to internet hype but now believe it’s a real issue in a significant proportion of that generation of engine. Bore score is the harder one to avoid as an upgraded IMS is relatively affordable. There are engines running great with 100k miles plus but that doesn’t mean you can ignore the risk. A full Hartech rebuild for borescoring can be done for around 10-12k the upper end results in a bullet proof block. In saying all of that, for me the 996/7, and 987 represents good value if bought at the right price / condition with a war chest to cover the potential rebuild cost as they are relatively cheap to run otherwise. I also believe the the smaller boxster/cayman 3.2, 3.4 and 2.7 are less commonly known for bore scoring than the 3.6 and 3.8 lumps. Autos are also higher risk apparently due to lugging the engine under high load at low revs for eco reasons in the gearbox programming.

BTW I have a 997.2 GTS manual which is a completely different engine (9A1 I believe) does not seem to suffer these issues and has no IMS as such