Which is the true way forward Hydrogen cell or EV

[lozcb]

Been troubling me for sometime this , kinda like we are being led down the garden path ring in nose style , Elon Musk albeit good intentioned i feel is missing the point . I have this sneaky feeling ( conspiracy theory) that he ...........they...............(who are they) ................are working in conjunction with the people that control the money to divert us down the road of the best taxable option ( non fossil fuel) by forcing the electric EV issue ..................when its my considered cantangerous old farts view that hydrogen fuel cell has to be the best way forward and needs a whole lot more investment from interest from governments . water in and water out seems extremely attractive to me .........................

 

[Zep]

The received wisdom used to be that hydrogen was energy intensive to make (expensive). There has been a lot of progress on that lately. So the only issue that remains is that it’s pretty explosive.

 

[davy83]

There are some Hydrogen fuel based projects around, but they have not developed as quickly as EV's. Biggest problem i see with Hydrogen is its not really available in its raw state naturally, so you need process plant or fuel cells and so the complexity goes up, and the cost with it. EV's may not be the answer but they are relatively accessible from a technology point of view, although it pushes the problem back onto how we generate electricity. So the EV route really relies on governement to push generation onto a green footing. There have actually been some big advances in the main unicorn of fusion reactors, and if they crack that problem we have a route to clean energy. No reason we cant have hydrogen fuelled cars and EV's?

 

[allandwf]

We probably haven't found the way forward yet, just alternatives.

 

[2b1ask1]

Hydrogen has to be gathered/extracted via green energy or it is just another mockery. As I understand it the big sticking point seems to be well: This

An easy read explaining it better than I could.

I really hope they crack this soon as it is IMHO a far better outcome than pure EV by lithium batteries.

 

[lozcb]

There are some Hydrogen fuel based projects around, but they have not developed as quickly as EV's. Biggest problem i see with Hydrogen is its not really available in its raw state naturally, so you need process plant or fuel cells and so the complexity goes up, and the cost with it. EV's may not be the answer but they are relatively accessible from a technology point of view, although it pushes the problem back onto how we generate electricity. So the EV route really relies on governement to push generation onto a green footing. There have actually been some big advances in the main unicorn of fusion reactors, and if they crack that problem we have a route to clean energy. No reason we cant have hydrogen fuelled cars and EV's?

I have browsed this topic over recent months , more specifically hydrogen as a way forward , Japan has implemented a system that uses hydrogen fuel cells to create electricity that is stored in lithium iron batteries similar to a Tesla , ( basically means we still have under age africans scrambling about in cobalt mines....but thats another issue Greta closes her eyes to .....How dare you not worry about young africans )

There are central heating boilers im told about to come on the market that replace your common gas boiler , they use water into a fuel cell , create hydrogen gas that fuels the boilers to heat your water and central heating , no CO2 = a happy Greta

I have been wracking my brains why isnt the funding and technology going into a system that can efficiently run the vehicles we already use , exchanging hydrogen for petrol , a little bit like having and LPG conversion , WE dont need hydrogen fuelling stations ( like petrol stations ) its easy enough to produce hydrogen with a battery and or mains power , Any whizzes out there that know how to turn hydrogen gas into liquid hydrogen we can store into LPG cylinders ..................this is the way i think we should be looking at .................................the Americans on the other hand , are looking to replace petrol stations with hydrogen fueling stations ....... which means a cost and a profit and the ability to tax fuel similar to how we do it now ,................................................. But they can never directly tax water , if the fuel is made within the car itself .......... pull my thinking apart because i think ive cracked .........................its my James May moment

 

[safrane]

To keep capitalism rolling we have to buy tech that will become obsolete after a few years... how else will the world keep turning on the grease of consumerism? ... if we all just horde Gold no one will make a bean.

 

[2b1ask1]

I have browsed this topic over recent months , more specifically hydrogen as a way forward , Japan has implemented a system that uses hydrogen fuel cells to create electricity that is stored in lithium iron batteries similar to a Tesla , ( basically means we still have under age africans scrambling about in cobalt mines....but thats another issue Greta closes her eyes to .....How dare you not worry about young africans )

There are central heating boilers im told about to come on the market that replace your common gas boiler , they use water into a fuel cell , create hydrogen gas that fuels the boilers to heat your water and central heating , no CO2 = a happy Greta

I have been wracking my brains why isnt the funding and technology going into a system that can efficiently run the vehicles we already use , exchanging hydrogen for petrol , a little bit like having and LPG conversion , WE dont need hydrogen fuelling stations ( like petrol stations ) its easy enough to produce hydrogen with a battery and or mains power , Any whizzes out there that know how to turn hydrogen gas into liquid hydrogen we can store into LPG cylinders ..................this is the way i think we should be looking at .................................the Americans on the other hand , are looking to replace petrol stations with hydrogen fueling stations ....... which means a cost and a profit and the ability to tax fuel similar to how we do it now ,................................................. But they can never directly tax water , if the fuel is made within the car itself .......... pull my thinking apart because i think ive cracked .........................its my James May moment

You have your answer right there Loz; you cannot (must not) tax water, how will the corp's make their cut!

This article gets a bit heavier but is quite recent and gives some great insights: Tech

What I get from it is actually it may not be that far off practical.

Don't forget however that a hydrogen combution engine (if that is the correct term) is very different to our petrol units. You can convert our petrol units to run on hydrogen but not very efficiently (about 30%)

 

[lozcb]

You have your answer right there Loz; you cannot (must not) tax water, how will the corp's make their cut!

This article gets a bit heavier but is quite recent and gives some great insights: Tech

What I get from it is actually it may not be that far off practical.

Don't forget however that a hydrogen combution engine (if that is the correct term) is very different to our petrol units. You can convert our petrol units to run on hydrogen but not very efficiently (about 30%)

Agreed Newton

Don't forget however that a hydrogen combution engine (if that is the correct term) is very different to our petrol units. You can convert our petrol units to run on hydrogen but not very efficiently (about 30%)


Even if its only 30% efficient ,its bloody free for chrisake , the rest surely technology can overcome overtime .............if the powers that be want first and foremost to be CO2 neutral then this has to be the way forward , it saves the motor industry ................but alas not the oil companies , which to be fair they have had my pants down since i was a 16 year old with a motorbike so what the Feck

 

[lozcb]

Agreed Newton

Don't forget however that a hydrogen combution engine (if that is the correct term) is very different to our petrol units. You can convert our petrol units to run on hydrogen but not very efficiently (about 30%)


Even if its only 30% efficient ,its bloody free for chrisake , the rest surely technology can overcome overtime .............if the powers that be want first and foremost to be CO2 neutral then this has to be the way forward , it saves the motor industry ................but alas not the oil companies , which to be fair they have had my pants down since i was a 16 year old with a motorbike so what the Feck

I dont believe the way forward is lithium iron battery storage .......................i truly believe its another red herring ........................just another way to control the market , with a limited life span , those poor bloody underage africans are gonna carry on getting exploited down those quarries bashing grey rocks to powder

 

[rockits]

Well Trump is a fan of Elon and thinks he is a genius. Tesla is another entrepreneurial success story (is it actually though?) and worth what....100bn? I don't think they will easily let us bypass the EV generation first before moving on to what we should be.

 

[rockits]

They can still tax road use and travel quite easily. There would be no need to tax the fuel.

 

[dgmx5]

Whichever, a rate limiting step will be the metal(s) required.

Trading one limited resource (oil) for another (lithium, nickel, platinum, palladium, whatever) and the issue of how the 'power' to produce either propellant and the vehicles themselves whilst having a much smaller environmental impact than at present are the challenges.

Remember BP will still exist even once petroleum is dead. They are energy companies not oil companies.

 

[Phil H]

I don't think there's a cat in h3ll's chance of EV's being adopted throughout the UK let alone worldwide. The charging infrastructure is simply not there and unlikely to be on the scale required in the time available.

Based on current technologies Hydrogen seems to be favourite, although it won't be like fitting aftermarket LPG to conventional engines, and Hyundai is just one manufacturer who has been testing the technology for a while (I'm sure that researchers are considering various alternatives):

Hyundai ix35 Fuel Cell 2013-2018 review | Autocar

As Hyundai ramps up its hydrogen car production, can the ix35 gain some traction in the UK

www.autocar.co.uk

Eco-warriors can demand what they want and governments can promise delivery, but if their demands are not achievable they're wasting their breath!

PH

 

[lozcb]

Came across this

 

[Phil H]

Came across this

APU Start - jeez, that takes me back to my RAF days lol. Nice installation in the BMW though.

PH

 

[Oishi]

IMHO you guys are correct. The Tesla business model is only successful with heavy tax subsidies, the power generation problems, the dangerous batteries, the toxic waste are major probs. The future is alternative fuels. There is some very interesting tech that is coming fairly soon. One involves using readily oxidizable metals, passing water thru a filter like container, oxygen bonds to the metal and hydrogen gas generated. Reheating the metal drives the oxygen off, and the "filter" reused.

 

[Zep]

Came across this

Any whizzes out there that know how to turn hydrogen gas into liquid hydrogen we can store into LPG cylinders ..................this is the way i think we should be looking at .................................
[/QUOTE]

Making hydrogen at home isn't tricky at all, storing it in a usable form is, liquifying it is the real trick. Cooling it to below 33K (yes, -253C) takes a bit more than a home freezer. Household boilers are easy, the gas network will be slowly converted to hydrogen and all boilers made after '96 can burn up to 23% gas hydrogen mix. But house boiler tend only to be around 15kW instantaneous power, so gaseous hydrogen has the energy density to deal with this. Cars need a lot more power (especially the ones we like) so liquid hydrogen is the only way, and thats very hard to do.

 

[Silvercat]

There are some Hydrogen fuel based projects around, but they have not developed as quickly as EV's. Biggest problem i see with Hydrogen is its not really available in its raw state naturally, so you need process plant or fuel cells and so the complexity goes up, and the cost with it. EV's may not be the answer but they are relatively accessible from a technology point of view, although it pushes the problem back onto how we generate electricity. So the EV route really relies on governement to push generation onto a green footing. There have actually been some big advances in the main unicorn of fusion reactors, and if they crack that problem we have a route to clean energy. No reason we cant have hydrogen fuelled cars and EV's?

Agreed. The answer will probably be both. Toyota and Hyundai are throwing themselves into FCEVs in a very big way and BMW are saying that they will have a hydrogen powered X5 in the market by 2025, which will be comparable in price to existing petrol X5's. So it's coming and the 'clever people' are now finding ways of generating hydrogen from iron in a much cheaper way than current practises would suggest. The Aviation industry are also seriously looking at electrically powered engines for airliners (RR and Airbus have just started testing on a flying aircraft) eventually with Hydrogen as the primary source for generating the electrical power. So it's looking like technology is moving fast now and we will see much more focus on Hydrogen than we have seen to date.

 

[midlifecrisis]

I think you should all invest in microNuclear. 1,000,000 mile range and encapsulated in a concrete cassette. What could possibly go wrong...