Petrol/Diesel new car ban

GeoffCapes

GeoffCapes

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14,000
Dan! said:
Having sold renewable energy systems for nearly 25 years now, all I can say is that the standard model is this:
Uproar from a noisy uninformed minority -> early adopters enjoy grants and incentives -> masses catch on and start buying -> noisy uninformed minority get upset when there's no grants left and then claim it's not financially viable.

Every single time.

Here's the usual bollox spouted by the noisy uniformed minority:
Thermal solar -> It's not sunny enough here
PV Solar -> The payback is too long
Heat Pumps -> Don't work in the winter
Elec cars -> The infrastructure can't cope, it's a technological step backwards, the range isn't long enough, etc
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You're spot on with the first 3.

Re electric car. There isn't enough electricity generated (in the UK) to cope with everyone driving them. And also there are too many people who do not have home parking spot for them to be cost effective home charging (that's with everyone driving one).
 
Dan!

Dan!

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3,029
GeoffCapes said:
You're spot on with the first 3.

Re electric car. There isn't enough electricity generated (in the UK) to cope with everyone driving them. And also there are too many people who do not have home parking spot for them to be cost effective home charging (that's with everyone driving one).
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I personally don't know what the answer to that is, as I'm not involved with the development of the national grid and don't know what their plans are to evolve to the point that they'll be able to provide the required power.
However, I'm sure it's something that they have many people working on, not least because they haven't got a choice.

I'm also pretty sure that when the first horseless carriages hit the road and became affordable to the masses, many people claimed that the infrastructure of the time would not be able to cope with the increased traffic. But it developed to the point that of course it does cope... most of the time.
 
montravia

montravia

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1,620
safrane said:
How does this Smart stuff work?

We keep being pressed for a smart meter but really don't see the point... If I'm cold I put the heating up, I'm not going to turn it down or off just because I note it is costing more, or sit in the dark to conserve a pound or two.

I assume it is reliant on mobile technology which living in a signal free area won't work and I have no idea how my meters know when a low or high tariff is live unless the clocks have more brains than I give them credit for.

I see smart meters just getting rid of meter readers and saving the Co. a few pounds.
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I was pestered to have smart meters installed both for electric and LPG tank. I warned both that there is no phone signal.
Didn't listen. They just wanted the tick in the box and government funding.
So now I am regularly asked to take a photo as a reading and email them.
Fuff
 
B

bigbob

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8,960
MrMickS said:
I'm currently working for a company making chargers for EVs, and have a deal with Octopus Energy in the UK to provide smart chargers. The chargers are much smarter than your kettle and toaster. You'll plug in, but might only charge at a low rate initially, to get that 20 miles in for the trip to the shop/takeway, but the majority of the charge will be overnight when its cheap.

If you need power for other things, the charger sees the demand and reduces the amount it draws, going back up once your kettle has boiled and the toast made.

With some of the charger/car combinations you can even use the car's battery to drive the home. Say you charge up overnight when the tariff is cheap, do a quick trip to the shop leaving plenty in the battery, the car could then reduce the draw on the grid for the rest of the day and save you a bit of cash.
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How prevalent is different rate unit charging these days? I never seem to be offered it. Regarding the battery top up/drain function you are going through AC to DC to AC so double the conversion loss. Personally I would prefer to reduce the 'car empty' risk and buy a Tesla Powerwall or what else comes out that's cheaper like this and hook it up to my Solar PV system but the problem with these is that they don't produce much power. I'm in the first feed in tariff scheme so I'm getting four times the market rate or thereabouts index linked for 25 years but a typical 4kw system only produces about 3000-3500kw pa with most of it over the summer. That's not a lot of power really.
 
B

bigbob

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8,960
Dan! said:
I personally don't know what the answer to that is, as I'm not involved with the development of the national grid and don't know what their plans are to evolve to the point that they'll be able to provide the required power.
However, I'm sure it's something that they have many people working on, not least because they haven't got a choice.

I'm also pretty sure that when the first horseless carriages hit the road and became affordable to the masses, many people claimed that the infrastructure of the time would not be able to cope with the increased traffic. But it developed to the point that of course it does cope... most of the time.
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Spot on. When people moved to cars they were delighted that horse **** did not cover the roads in towns and cities. The same will be the case in cities in a decade time where driving an ICE will be seem as socially unacceptable just as diesel has been demonised very quickly in the last five years. Our sort of cars will be kept for country jaunts and trips to the track. For me it won't be a problem as I live rurally and rarely take the Maser into Edinburgh anymore. best bet if you live in a city is to buy a garage on the edge of town and park a nice sports/supercar in it for weekends.
 
Phil H

Phil H

Member
Messages
4,144
Dan! said:
I personally don't know what the answer to that is, as I'm not involved with the development of the national grid and don't know what their plans are to evolve to the point that they'll be able to provide the required power.
However, I'm sure it's something that they have many people working on, not least because they haven't got a choice.

I'm also pretty sure that when the first horseless carriages hit the road and became affordable to the masses, many people claimed that the infrastructure of the time would not be able to cope with the increased traffic. But it developed to the point that of course it does cope... most of the time.
Click to expand...

Sorry Dan, but if you don't know what the answer is how can you possibly say that doubters are an uninformed minority spouting bollox?

The reality is that politicians routinely play to the gallery and announce plans which common sense says are at best optimistic, and at worst downright lies. I don't disagree that one day we will see the demise of ICE vehicles, and you are probably correct in that a lot of technical work is now being done to that end by motor manufacturers and the power industry, but imho the current 2030 announcement ranks alongside the 'world-beating' Test and Trace System that was promised by the same politicians. Anyone familiar with project planning knows that when you can't meet the target date or budget you simply re-forecast and cite all manner of reasons for doing so, and governments are no different - as HS2 admirably demonstrates.

For what it's worth, I suggest that a key factor in non-ICE technology is going to be vehicle weight; lighter vehicles=less motive power=less drain on the power source=greater sustainability (hopefully). However, I remain confident that ICE vehicles will be around long after I'm gone, and I've no plans to depart this life just yet. In the meantime the ICE/non-ICE ratio will be interesting to watch, as will the timelines advocated by our political masters.

PH
 
Dan!

Dan!

Member
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3,029
Phil H said:
Sorry Dan, but if you don't know what the answer is how can you possibly say that doubters are an uninformed minority spouting bollox?

The reality is that politicians routinely play to the gallery and announce plans which common sense says are at best optimistic, and at worst downright lies. I don't disagree that one day we will see the demise of ICE vehicles, and you are probably correct in that a lot of technical work is now being done to that end by motor manufacturers and the power industry, but imho the current 2030 announcement ranks alongside the 'world-beating' Test and Trace System that was promised by the same politicians. Anyone familiar with project planning knows that when you can't meet the target date or budget you simply re-forecast and cite all manner of reasons for doing so, and governments are no different - as HS2 admirably demonstrates.

For what it's worth, I suggest that a key factor in non-ICE technology is going to be vehicle weight; lighter vehicles=less motive power=less drain on the power source=greater sustainability (hopefully). However, I remain confident that ICE vehicles will be around long after I'm gone, and I've no plans to depart this life just yet. In the meantime the ICE/non-ICE ratio will be interesting to watch, as will the timelines advocated by our political masters.

PH
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How can I say doubters are an uninformed minority spouting bollox? Because they know even less than me, that's how.

And in my experience over 20+ years it's always been the case. So that's also how.

Negative people love to be prophets of doom spouting on how something can't be done.
 
C

Canova

Junior Member
Messages
44
Two comments:
  1. Politicians are great at making statements of intent that they will not be around to implement or make excuses for, this is just grandstanding to appeal to the eco/green brigade.
  2. Charging overnight on Economy 7 cheap electricity will disappear when demand increases, the energy suppliers are not going to miss out on the profits from a surge in demand.
 
Phil H

Phil H

Member
Messages
4,144
Stop press

Lord Percy is recruited as the Government's green consultant, with an initial contract of c£21m. He said that whilst he is overjoyed at the prospect of bringing a little colour to Westminster, it is disappointing that it was not previously available to assist with sight tests.

 
MrMickS

MrMickS

Member
Messages
3,959
safrane said:
How does this Smart stuff work?

We keep being pressed for a smart meter but really don't see the point... If I'm cold I put the heating up, I'm not going to turn it down or off just because I note it is costing more, or sit in the dark to conserve a pound or two.

I assume it is reliant on mobile technology which living in a signal free area won't work and I have no idea how my meters know when a low or high tariff is live unless the clocks have more brains than I give them credit for.

I see smart meters just getting rid of meter readers and saving the Co. a few pounds.
Click to expand...

Two things with the smart EV chargers, one is the ability to schedule when the charge is done so you can plug in when you get home, maybe get a short charge and then the full charge from midnight or so.

The second is hooked in with a monitor on the power draw on the circuit. The charger knows what the maximum draw is and can then adjust what its drawing to go with other use. If you have multiple chargers, most of us have more than one car, it can split the available capacity between them based on demand.

bigbob said:
How prevalent is different rate unit charging these days? I never seem to be offered it. Regarding the battery top up/drain function you are going through AC to DC to AC so double the conversion loss. Personally I would prefer to reduce the 'car empty' risk and buy a Tesla Powerwall or what else comes out that's cheaper like this and hook it up to my Solar PV system but the problem with these is that they don't produce much power. I'm in the first feed in tariff scheme so I'm getting four times the market rate or thereabouts index linked for 25 years but a typical 4kw system only produces about 3000-3500kw pa with most of it over the summer. That's not a lot of power really.
Click to expand...

The conversion loss depends on where you are doing the conversion. There are AC and DC chargers. Using a straight AC charger you are reliant on the efficiency of the converter in the car which vary. A good DC charger is likely to give lower conversion loss as its one of the reasons for using one in the first place.

Disclaimer: I'm not an electrical engineer. I have seen the presentations of what the company does on that side but am only involved on the software side so that's where I've more knowledge.
 
Andyk

Andyk

Member
Messages
61,106
Its weird to think it this happens then only manufacturers selling electric will sell in the UK...….Some of them will need to get their finger out or they may not be around......Bet there are a few small makers getting a bit twitchy.
 
Dan!

Dan!

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Messages
3,029
alfatwo said:
Its all bollox, and as usual all the folk on low incomes will suffer the most!

Dave
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A great example of an uninformed opinion right here, thanks.

I'm currently "giving away" (100% grant funded) Hybrid Heat Pump Combi boiler systems that retail for around £9,500 to people that receive any kind of income support.
They do not have to pay a penny and get an up to date system that will save them £200-300 per year on their gas bills and the system will last around twice as long as a standard Combi Boiler as it's sharing the load with the heat pump. It's an incredible deal for low income families. It's also particularly relevant for all those people that are now finding themselves being made redundant and are claiming job seekers allowance for the first and only time.
 
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