Longtube manifolds for GranTurismo (and QPV)

[KebabKebab]

So what are the numbers on the dyno? What was the increase? I know its variable but would at least provide an indication...

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

Hi Motorsport,

Who is doing your mapping for you? Ate you intending to include a remap as part of a package to get the best out of the new headers?

Thanks

Chris

We don't map original ECU's, here with builds in the shop we use stand alone ecu's and then my engine machinist/builder sets them up ether on the engine stand dyno or the rolling road.

There are quite a lot of "remap" shops here in Europe that offer to remap/flash the stock ecu. (UK and US will be rather the same)
On this particular car the customer had a shop he wanted to do the retune so they handled that portion..

In future we may look more in to re-tuning stock ecu's but R&D time to isn't endless and interms of ECU projects we're finishing up ECU conversions for Maserati. (whole other story, not really applicable to GranTurismo)

Anyway we have stock dyno runs and after full headers, no catalyst, bmc air filter other wise stock.
The before and after run's where done at the "tuner" the customer selected.

We do independent benchmarks so we can better see dyno differences (each dyno will vary from a other)
That said just prior to header install the alternator failed during stock pulls at our engine shop (in typical GT/QP style)
So that left us with out 3th party base runs, anyway the runs from the tuner where within expectations. (I'll try do current "after runs" at our engine machinist shop)

I'll post up results later on, I want do to the fourth dyno session at my engine builders, (trying to get in dyno time coming week/s)
FYI mapped no catalyst.

For using stock ECU mapping you'll need the catalyst variant which we're finalizing design on, shouldn't be a huge difference i think as that's based of existing Ferraro 599 product. (stock ecu's very aggressively search for proper cat function hence decat needs to mapped)

 

[Chrisb2015]

We don't map original ECU's, here with builds in the shop we use stand alone ecu's and then my engine machinist/builder sets them up ether on the engine stand dyno or the rolling road.

There are quite a lot of "remap" shops here in Europe that offer to remap/flash the stock ecu. (UK and US will be rather the same)
On this particular car the customer had a shop he wanted to do the retune so they handled that portion..

In future we may look more in to re-tuning stock ecu's but R&D time to isn't endless and interms of ECU projects we're finishing up ECU conversions for Maserati. (whole other story, not really applicable to GranTurismo)

Anyway we have stock dyno runs and after full headers, no catalyst, bmc air filter other wise stock.
The before and after run's where done at the "tuner" the customer selected.

We do independent benchmarks so we can better see dyno differences (each dyno will vary from a other)
That said just prior to header install the alternator failed during stock pulls at our engine shop (in typical GT/QP style)
So that left us with out 3th party base runs, anyway the runs from the tuner where within expectations. (I'll try do current "after runs" at our engine machinist shop)

I'll post up results later on, I want do to the fourth dyno session at my engine builders, (trying to get in dyno time coming week/s)
FYI mapped no catalyst.

For using stock ECU mapping you'll need the catalyst variant which we're finalizing design on, shouldn't be a huge difference i think as that's based of existing Ferraro 599 product. (stock ecu's very aggressively search for proper cat function hence decat needs to mapped)

Thank you for taking the time to reply. Presumably the de-cat version is for a motorsport application only? It makes sense to go standalone if you are running de-cat, although I suspect most will want a cat version for noise and MOT purposes.

Will the alternative version you are working on be compatible with aftermarket sports cats like Larini?

Thank you

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

This system is not compatible with larini cats, where larini cats is before where our headers start merging, hence they're equal length and tuned for maximum torque.
That said we are going to offer cats in the connection pipes linking them to the x-pipe. (so twin race cats to make it MOT compliant)

De-cat is applicable to cars not requiring them for MOT, there are countries that do not require this and there are customer there prefer that on there cars.
The stock ecu can easily run without the cat, it just needs to be mapped and the secondary 02 control switched off.

As for dyno sheets these will be posted after all testing is done

 

[Felonious Crud]

These headers plus SportsItalia's ECU tune. I'm wondering about who the test-rabbit will be here. I'm thinking @Zep. Part development mule, part test-bed, part Italian, part Scot. A patchwork quilt of all kinds of adventures.

 

[Gazcw]

These headers plus SportsItalia's ECU tune. I'm wondering about who the test-rabbit will be here. I'm thinking @Zep. Part development mule, part test-bed, part Italian, part Scot, part pineapple pizza. A patchwork quilt of all kinds of adventures.

 

[midlifecrisis]

Well corrected

 

[Zep]

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

My engine builder can't do runs this week or next, due to getting caught out with Covid.
Extra runs will be posted here later but after a ton of requests here are the full stock and tuned with headers and no catalysts.
Do i think there is more to be had in this setup, yes given time we can tease out more HP here and test additional air induction ideas perhaps compare muffler setups (FYI exhaust from header/cats on wards fully stock 112k km old)

A bit of extra context here:

• Stock F136Y in face lift cars ran 460 hp (same basic engine specs, these are YP, YQ, YS) (FYI: YK, YC, YP are 450HP)
• Average remap on 4.7 gets 470-480 hp (claimed but that's what nearly all "tuners" quote globally)
• Headers tuned for mid-range torque, also eventually we'd recon we'd run out of flow through the airbox/maf/throttle setup (FYI: GT4 and Trofeo do not have MAF sensor but run MAP on a ME7.1)
• I'm calculating in Metric DIN, our test GT is a '08 F136 YE with '50 degree variators (later cars have more torque adjustment range due to '10 degrees more reach!)
• Camshaft timing overlap is FYI different between a ZF car and a F1, later cars have more intake range which improves torque and egr emissions function (50 vs 60 degree variator)

Added metrics:

• 2011 on wards have bigger variator reach, 60 degree vs 50. (ME 9 ECU)
• F136 YK,P,Q,S have more oil pressure, reed valves in the sump (aka less pumping loss) and DLC coating throughout (less parasitic loss)
• Test car is a early F136 YE with out any of those updates.
• Dyno at the company that remapped the car had a simple fan setup, I do not have IAT logs but from what is saw the GranTurismo's ram intake would not be working at all (The twin ducts coming out your airbox go into the radiator shroud these will give a ram effect at speed)
  • GT4 and Trofeo run direct air induction trough the air duct in they're bonnet, they also do not have MAF sensors and run ME7 ecu.

Dyno:
Like mentioned earlier in the thread intend to collect more data as we go along, but we're very happy with the results, fitment and function so that physical headers are set done ready for production.

• Important note, the intention here is not max HP in a Maserati it's not the key they're just to heavy, we targeted maximum torque gain.
• As you can see we managed to create a massive improvement 2500-5000 RPM this is essentially where 90% of driving takes place in both F1 like this car and ZF transmission

Test car:

1. 2008 GranTurismo S F1/MC Shift - F136 YE, 112.000 KM
2. Prior to modifications fully stock, currently running stock exhaust (so oval with the bypass valve!), (x-pipe/resonator to muffler)

Quattroporte information:
QP has a few big notices from above data

• Data should only be correlated with 4.7 Sport GTS!
• Quattroporte 4.7S , 430 HP run's 4.2L airbox and doesn't have the bypass in it's muffler. > Hence Sport GTS has 10 HP extra.
• All Quattroporte run the less overlap base timing of a ZF

 

[midlifecrisis]

Coupled with the intake mod that the Cerberati has, then it'll have more torque than Farage...

 

[JJbing]

Can someone translate to a simpleton? Loud pedal go quicker? Be interested to see 0-60

in all seriousness, those figures look good. I’m interested!

 

[KebabKebab]

What would be interesting/wishful thinking is the SI remap with these headers giving us "epic gainz"...as the kids say these days

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

Can someone translate to a simpleton? Loud pedal go quicker? Be interested to see 0-60

in all seriousness, those figures look good. I’m interested!

Yes it's a lot quicker and importantly a lot smoother, Uphill acceleration in 6th at 2000 rpm is now smooth and strong, aka you don't need to downshift in to 5.
Downshift with a F1 is a lot more spectacular sound wise.

As for the remap, typical a tuned 4.7 will just gain a bit of torque (mirroring the orignal progressive curve) and run about 470hp.
We're now at nearly 500hp, and we moved the torque curve down 3000 rpm and 40nm more than a "remapped" 4.7 typically would run.

 

[midlifecrisis]

Can someone translate to a simpleton? Loud pedal go quicker? Be interested to see 0-60

in all seriousness, those figures look good. I’m interested!

The graph above is a combined graph of power and torque. The power lines are the diagonal lines and the torque lines are the steep then flat lines.
It also shows the before (in black) and after (in blue)for comparison.

When a car is put on a dynometer the wheels spin a rolling road (bit like the MOT) . The rolling road measures the torque of the car as it spins faster and faster by applying a braking action (resistance). Power is calculated from the torque and power and torque should always cross at 5252*rpm (it's to do with the maths in the calculation)

Torque is what drives you forward and accelerates the car. What AS Motorsport have achieved is a lot more torque at lower RPM. So you should feel a kick in the arsé lower in the rev range. Meaning easier overtaking.


*Corrected

 

[Gazcw]

What would be interesting/wishful thinking is the SI remap with these headers giving us "epic gainz"...as the kids say these days

Don't forget these figures are without cats. When that manifold is done then it gets interesting.

 

[Cyclone1]

The graph above is a combined graph of power and torque. The power lines are the diagonal lines and the torque lines are the steep then flat lines.
Power is calculated from the torque and power and torque should always cross at 6500rpm (it's to do with the maths in the calculation)

Great info but It’s 5252rpm that they cross over but only if the BHP and Torque numbers are equal on the Y axis.

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

Don't forget these figures are without cats. When that manifold is done then it gets interesting.

That will be fairly the same, it will sound different for sure, as we'll use race cats per-bank but placed near the x-pipe.
Spec'd to flow for at least 300 hp per bank (600 total) as you'd do on a Ferrari 599 etc.

That said it will likely require a good warm up in that configuration to get ideal emissions reduction.
Currently for ZF variant we're having to redesign the cats even further back (where old Ghibli's had them) as to have ideal clearnce.

The impact of the race cataysts as they're so far beyond the merger will be if something only in HP once the variators are at max (6000 rpm range)

As you can see around 5500 rpm the variators go max overlap killing torque and giving the final HP push.
I'm intending to see if that can be tweaked further, also i want to see if we can simulate airflow better on a dyno

Below your Maserati emblem on the bumper there are intake ducts feeding the air-filter high pressure air that's in the air conveyor going to your radiator. (at full vehicle speed)
Test at the dyno are maybe at 60-80 km/h incoming air, if you're moving along at 200km/h that air pressure is much much higher.

Hence Stradale has the exit port on the hood to let over pressure in the engine bay exit, again creating a lower pressure zone behind the radiator allowing much more are to move trough the radiator

 

[midlifecrisis]

Great info but It’s 5252rpm that they cross over but only if the BHP and Torque numbers are equal on the Y axis.

Yes, I couldn't remember despite years of poring over these types of graphs in Performance Bikes in the 90's comparing GSXRs, ZXRs, CBRs and YZFs...

Duly corrected

 

[JJbing]

Looking forward to what it sounds like on a MC shift with x pipe! Would imagine the crackles on overrun must be insane?

 

[giorgio01]

Very interesting, Cerberati does have more torque slightly higher in the rev range 572Nm at close to 4500 rpm but roughly 535Nm at 3500rpm.
That is with custom unequal length manifolds due to VERY limited space. Engine is from 2009 Granturismo auto