gs clutch collapse. need help please
- Thread starter GETRDY
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conaero
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Good lad, see if you can eak another 10k out of it.
conaero
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Yes I see Chris quite regularly.
Tubber273
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I watching this thread with great interest! Specifically the PP upgrade to the F430 Challenge PP.
When I need to replace my clutch, I'd love to upgrade/strengthen all parts possible.
Was there any confirmation in the end that the part #228738 is a simple, no mods exchange?
BTW....Outstanding teamwork between everyone!!!
It's this type of cooperation that makes all of our jobs/issues so much easier!!
THANK YOU!!!!
When I need to replace my clutch, I'd love to upgrade/strengthen all parts possible.
Was there any confirmation in the end that the part #228738 is a simple, no mods exchange?
BTW....Outstanding teamwork between everyone!!!
It's this type of cooperation that makes all of our jobs/issues so much easier!!
THANK YOU!!!!
zagatoes30
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Not had time to chase Emblem this week, this work stuff gets in the way of everything
CraigWaterman11
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okay guys, I got the part about 5:00pm yesterday and I finished it by 8pm. Here are some pics. I still have to take the car in for a self learn before I can drive it but the hard part is done.
Here is the actuator with all the hydraulic lines running to the top of it
The plug you see at the very top is the plug for the Pots. You can see the very end of the actuator but barely.
Here is where the new Pots/base plate will be going.
Same thing as above but different view, you can see how the actuator goes into the gear box in this photo at the bottom.
And...........sorry, put it all back together and didn't take photos because it would have been hard to see it. I am going to schedule a time to take the car back over to put it into self learn mode and hopefully it will be done.
Here is the actuator with all the hydraulic lines running to the top of it
The plug you see at the very top is the plug for the Pots. You can see the very end of the actuator but barely.
Here is where the new Pots/base plate will be going.
Same thing as above but different view, you can see how the actuator goes into the gear box in this photo at the bottom.
And...........sorry, put it all back together and didn't take photos because it would have been hard to see it. I am going to schedule a time to take the car back over to put it into self learn mode and hopefully it will be done.
conaero
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Well done Craig, I have been doing some digging this end to. I have been looking into the actuator pots for the Alfa Romeo Selespeed which is what our CambioCorsa is based on.
Here are the actuator pots for the Alfa, ok not the same but could them be made to work????
Price, wait for it.........£32.50 for the pair!
Here are the actuator pots for the Alfa, ok not the same but could them be made to work????
Price, wait for it.........£32.50 for the pair!
CraigWaterman11
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They do look to have the same shape for sure. I think it's possible. I am wondering about the clocking stops,..... even if we can get the little armatures off and reuse them. Additionally the pots are spring loaded with various tensions. The long armature pot is easier to push, than the smaller one. This is true on the brand new set as well. So........well, I am going to send them back with Chris. It might be easier to have them there to research this out. You guys really have access to various parts we would have to wait to get sent over.
CraigWaterman11
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Yes of course......well wait a minute that little hunk of aluminum would look nice sitting on the counter beside my wife's Kitchen Aide mixer!
CraigWaterman11
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sorry guys I think I am behind with posting on the UK side, and I have posted a few times on ML. Looks like there's a slight hiccup in the Pot operation. I put the new Pots in.
I took it over for the self learn with Steve Oldford from Aston Martin of New England. Before I did so though I did start the car and try the gears. It would go into reverse, 1st and 2nd. But the indicator light was still blinking with the CC light on.
I arrived he hooked the car up, cleared the codes, and would you believe it, it refused to self learn. It stayed in 6th gear on the indicator but it was actually in neutral. He kept telling it to go to neutral and he was trying to toggle the gears but it wouldn't toggle.....it was throwing the same codes. [For Maserati reference it's P1741-and P1742.] Now I am a bit upset about the operation. I couldn't run the car over because my truck with 35" tires was attached to the trailer it was on, it would have taken to long to unhook it, push it down the ramps, run it over and leave. By then I would have used my better judgment. So here's the thing. Steve stood out there for about 30-45 min straight doing it over and over again. He cleared the codes, rebooted the Leo system. Nada. Same codes thrown but here's the thing they were still sending data. My hypothesis is this. I don't think they were installed correctly or maybe there's a more serious issue keeping the Pots from turning correctly...........
Here's the second post I did on ML as well because I had the car on the car hauler I decided to just use it as a pit to climb under the car and take it back apart last night.......
...........here is the housing of the potentiometers with the actuator rod that runs into it. You will notice there is only a quarter piece cut out of the actuator rod, there is only one place the armatures can sit. I wiped all the grease away so that you can actually see what I saw beforehand.
Now in order to seat the base plate with the pots correctly, you have to sit the base plate/pots in lower and slide them up to the top part of the quarter cut out. If you try to just sit the base plate and pots on top of the housing the armatures will contact the top edge and will not seat correctly. The armatures are spring loaded, so as you slide the base plate up from the bottom the tabs on the armatures contact the top quarter cut out of the actuator rod, and push the armatures down. There are metal dowels on the base plate diagonal from each other so as soon as you preload the Pots by sliding the base plate up the dowels can push down into the holes, and you can hold the base plate in place with one hand putting the screws in with the other. Now here is the kick in the seat of the pants for me. I obviously did all of this but when I opened up the housing again to see why the Pot codes were still being thrown, the larger armature had been broken off, and was resting in the bottom of the housing in the grease. So my brand new Pots now look like this:
Okay so now I am trying to figure out. Did I miss something? Did I squeeze the armature by accident and didn't know it? I don't think so. My concern is when I attempted to turn the actuator rod it didn't move. I could still push it from side to side but when I attempted to mimic what I thought the pots would be doing .....no dice........
Conaero.......I hate to do this to you but I think I am going to need the Pot with the long armature on it. I am going to need to figure out either how to take it apart to put the long armature on the new pot to be able to use it, or splice the wiring harness and use the old Pot with the long armature already on it. I believe it was still good it was the small armature that was having issues I believe. That or the actuator rod is actually stuck from moving the way it is supposed to which in turn made the Pot codes come up in the first place. This would explain also how it broke the new armature off the Pot as well. I will be under the car most of the day. I have to figure out what the issue is before I ruin another set of almost $1000 pots. Sorry I didn't keep you guys updated as all the thing were unfolding.
I took it over for the self learn with Steve Oldford from Aston Martin of New England. Before I did so though I did start the car and try the gears. It would go into reverse, 1st and 2nd. But the indicator light was still blinking with the CC light on.
I arrived he hooked the car up, cleared the codes, and would you believe it, it refused to self learn. It stayed in 6th gear on the indicator but it was actually in neutral. He kept telling it to go to neutral and he was trying to toggle the gears but it wouldn't toggle.....it was throwing the same codes. [For Maserati reference it's P1741-and P1742.] Now I am a bit upset about the operation. I couldn't run the car over because my truck with 35" tires was attached to the trailer it was on, it would have taken to long to unhook it, push it down the ramps, run it over and leave. By then I would have used my better judgment. So here's the thing. Steve stood out there for about 30-45 min straight doing it over and over again. He cleared the codes, rebooted the Leo system. Nada. Same codes thrown but here's the thing they were still sending data. My hypothesis is this. I don't think they were installed correctly or maybe there's a more serious issue keeping the Pots from turning correctly...........
Here's the second post I did on ML as well because I had the car on the car hauler I decided to just use it as a pit to climb under the car and take it back apart last night.......
...........here is the housing of the potentiometers with the actuator rod that runs into it. You will notice there is only a quarter piece cut out of the actuator rod, there is only one place the armatures can sit. I wiped all the grease away so that you can actually see what I saw beforehand.
Now in order to seat the base plate with the pots correctly, you have to sit the base plate/pots in lower and slide them up to the top part of the quarter cut out. If you try to just sit the base plate and pots on top of the housing the armatures will contact the top edge and will not seat correctly. The armatures are spring loaded, so as you slide the base plate up from the bottom the tabs on the armatures contact the top quarter cut out of the actuator rod, and push the armatures down. There are metal dowels on the base plate diagonal from each other so as soon as you preload the Pots by sliding the base plate up the dowels can push down into the holes, and you can hold the base plate in place with one hand putting the screws in with the other. Now here is the kick in the seat of the pants for me. I obviously did all of this but when I opened up the housing again to see why the Pot codes were still being thrown, the larger armature had been broken off, and was resting in the bottom of the housing in the grease. So my brand new Pots now look like this:
Okay so now I am trying to figure out. Did I miss something? Did I squeeze the armature by accident and didn't know it? I don't think so. My concern is when I attempted to turn the actuator rod it didn't move. I could still push it from side to side but when I attempted to mimic what I thought the pots would be doing .....no dice........
Conaero.......I hate to do this to you but I think I am going to need the Pot with the long armature on it. I am going to need to figure out either how to take it apart to put the long armature on the new pot to be able to use it, or splice the wiring harness and use the old Pot with the long armature already on it. I believe it was still good it was the small armature that was having issues I believe. That or the actuator rod is actually stuck from moving the way it is supposed to which in turn made the Pot codes come up in the first place. This would explain also how it broke the new armature off the Pot as well. I will be under the car most of the day. I have to figure out what the issue is before I ruin another set of almost $1000 pots. Sorry I didn't keep you guys updated as all the thing were unfolding.
hodroyd
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Craig,
That's a bit of a ***** mate..!! In my opinion and because these are quite small and not very strong Pot/Armatures, the shaft they are trying to move should not be solid..!! Is the car currently in gear, or in neutral..?? If the Actuator rod is supposed to be moved by the Pots, then it should be really easy to move and not solid. Have you tried the pots connected, on the plate but not fastened to the Actuator, then select gears and see what reaction you get from the pots..??
Looking at how they sit in relation to the shaft, in situ you would have the central pot sitting over the top of the shaft and the other right on top of it, with the now missing arm, it's not easy to figure out how they are supposed to work..?? At a guess the shaft should be in a specific position for when you are fitting the plate back on and maybe it was not..??
Best of luck mate..!!
Cheers
R
That's a bit of a ***** mate..!! In my opinion and because these are quite small and not very strong Pot/Armatures, the shaft they are trying to move should not be solid..!! Is the car currently in gear, or in neutral..?? If the Actuator rod is supposed to be moved by the Pots, then it should be really easy to move and not solid. Have you tried the pots connected, on the plate but not fastened to the Actuator, then select gears and see what reaction you get from the pots..??
Looking at how they sit in relation to the shaft, in situ you would have the central pot sitting over the top of the shaft and the other right on top of it, with the now missing arm, it's not easy to figure out how they are supposed to work..?? At a guess the shaft should be in a specific position for when you are fitting the plate back on and maybe it was not..??
Best of luck mate..!!
Cheers
R
CraigWaterman11
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hoyroyd, I think I might of confused what I wrote above. So the potentiometers do not move the actuator rod, it's the other way around. The actuator rod move the potentiometers. Actually it clocks them as the actuator rod turns them. It's the potentiometers that tell the TCU where the actuator is shifted to, which in turn tells the solenoids when/which to fire. So this is why it was reading 6th gear when in actuality it was in neutral. Since the armature broke the indicator on the dash was reading 6th gear because the armature was in a position (albeit broke) 6th would be in. Additionally this is why it wouldn't self learn. The computer was not getting a reading on where the actuator was in relation to the self learning process. The potentiometers would only read 6th gear when it began the self learning process and couldn't complete.
Additionally, I spliced in the old potentiometer. But I did the install very differently. I realized last night while attempting to clock the potentiometer base plate to sit it into the housing then turn the base plate clock wise to line the metal dowels up that when slightly lifting the base plate to seat the dowels, I could hear a slight click. So basically I was assuming that the metal tabs on the armatures were lined up under the metal actuator rod where they were supposed to be. But since you can not see through the aluminum base plate there's no way to know for sure. Moreover, it would seem if that slight click was the long armature going above the actuator rod instead of below it that's what would snap the armature. What I did instead so I could know for certain both armatures were under the actuator rod was use two flat pieces of dental floss. I made a loop around each armature then fed them back out the two bottom screw holes. In this way I could physically pull each armature down as I seated the aluminum base plate dowels in place. Then after being seated I could pull on each piece of dental floss to FEEL the armature pull down under the armature rod, and know it wasn't bound up underneath it. Then put two screws in the top part of the base plate to hold it in place. Next check the tension on both armatures again to make sure I could pull them both down to each side, and pull one side of the dental floss to pull it out from around the armatures. I just put the two last screws in afterwards and I was finished with that part.
I just finished last night, and I am taking it end to the Aston Martin dealer hopefully for the last time this morning.
Additionally, I spliced in the old potentiometer. But I did the install very differently. I realized last night while attempting to clock the potentiometer base plate to sit it into the housing then turn the base plate clock wise to line the metal dowels up that when slightly lifting the base plate to seat the dowels, I could hear a slight click. So basically I was assuming that the metal tabs on the armatures were lined up under the metal actuator rod where they were supposed to be. But since you can not see through the aluminum base plate there's no way to know for sure. Moreover, it would seem if that slight click was the long armature going above the actuator rod instead of below it that's what would snap the armature. What I did instead so I could know for certain both armatures were under the actuator rod was use two flat pieces of dental floss. I made a loop around each armature then fed them back out the two bottom screw holes. In this way I could physically pull each armature down as I seated the aluminum base plate dowels in place. Then after being seated I could pull on each piece of dental floss to FEEL the armature pull down under the armature rod, and know it wasn't bound up underneath it. Then put two screws in the top part of the base plate to hold it in place. Next check the tension on both armatures again to make sure I could pull them both down to each side, and pull one side of the dental floss to pull it out from around the armatures. I just put the two last screws in afterwards and I was finished with that part.
I just finished last night, and I am taking it end to the Aston Martin dealer hopefully for the last time this morning.
hodroyd
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Craig,
10/10 for persistance..!! So the pots are only used for sensing and spring loaded to come back to a zero point, OK I get that now, I thought it was a bit weird..!!
It sounds like you might have solved the issue, in assembly they probably have a simple tool to do exactly the same thing as you have done..!! Let's hope this revised method has finally put the matter to rest and you finally saved a chunk of money..!!
Cheers
R
10/10 for persistance..!! So the pots are only used for sensing and spring loaded to come back to a zero point, OK I get that now, I thought it was a bit weird..!!
It sounds like you might have solved the issue, in assembly they probably have a simple tool to do exactly the same thing as you have done..!! Let's hope this revised method has finally put the matter to rest and you finally saved a chunk of money..!!
Cheers
R
CraigWaterman11
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Okay guys let me update you.......so first and foremost the dental floss is the only way to go to make sure the armatures are UNDER the actuator rod. There isn't another good way to know they are under it. Rob to answer your question, the armatures do come on the potentiometers. I looked into removing the long armature from the old one and installing it on the new one but it's not possible from what I can tell. It looks like there is a rivet right in the center of that arm going into the potentiometer. Believe me I wish there was something I could have done. The kick in the seat of the pants was I bought those at $734 USD brand new and I could not find them cheaper anywhere. I could buy some used ones which takes me to the next part.............and Conareo tools.......well I kept getting hot flashes and thinking Incredible Hulk where he turns green, blows up saying "your making me angry!". "Hulk smash!!" Thankfully, at least I think thankfully, I didn't turn superhuman and turn it into a can opener!! On a side note I have called it everything I could think of, accept Maserati! Wouldn't you know it still didn't help!
So on to the next issue. The dental floss is the way to go, and I know it for sure because I took it over to put it on the Leo system this morning. Cleared the codes, all the lights went out, and wait for it......................................
...........................................................
...........................................................
nope still not fixed. There are no lights on the dash, the Leo system says there are no codes, but it won't go into gear, and the Leo system still will not self learn. Yep, so I know how to correctly install Potentiometers in the F1 system now......only at the price of $734, but now because I spliced in one of the old pots we still don't know if that is the issue or it's something else. TCU.....etc., etc.,. He was reading data from both pots but initially when the car was doing what it did when I was driving, there weren't any lights on the dash. So...............I might be buying a new set of pots, I am wondering if I should just buy pot (weed) period. At least this way I can laugh at nothing, pretend everything is okay, and it's a lot less expensive! Ha!
Okay guys so that's the update!
Almost forgot to add this, and I still don't know if I posted the resistance data for the potentiometers earlier in this thread or not. So the reason why I think the old pot might not be good either with the long armature, but installed right is because when I had the side by side data from the new and old potentiometer with the long armature from a multimeter on auto find this is what it read:
Old Gear potentiometer DV 1528
two ends (orange/yellow wires) .711 (the new flashes 38.40 then open)
The middle/Wiper Grey wire and end orange wire reads 52.0 on the old, (the new reads 38.85)
The orange end wire and grey wiper wire reads .763 on the old, (the new reads 38.34)
So on to the next issue. The dental floss is the way to go, and I know it for sure because I took it over to put it on the Leo system this morning. Cleared the codes, all the lights went out, and wait for it......................................
...........................................................
...........................................................
nope still not fixed. There are no lights on the dash, the Leo system says there are no codes, but it won't go into gear, and the Leo system still will not self learn. Yep, so I know how to correctly install Potentiometers in the F1 system now......only at the price of $734, but now because I spliced in one of the old pots we still don't know if that is the issue or it's something else. TCU.....etc., etc.,. He was reading data from both pots but initially when the car was doing what it did when I was driving, there weren't any lights on the dash. So...............I might be buying a new set of pots, I am wondering if I should just buy pot (weed) period. At least this way I can laugh at nothing, pretend everything is okay, and it's a lot less expensive! Ha!
Okay guys so that's the update!
Almost forgot to add this, and I still don't know if I posted the resistance data for the potentiometers earlier in this thread or not. So the reason why I think the old pot might not be good either with the long armature, but installed right is because when I had the side by side data from the new and old potentiometer with the long armature from a multimeter on auto find this is what it read:
Old Gear potentiometer DV 1528
two ends (orange/yellow wires) .711 (the new flashes 38.40 then open)
The middle/Wiper Grey wire and end orange wire reads 52.0 on the old, (the new reads 38.85)
The orange end wire and grey wiper wire reads .763 on the old, (the new reads 38.34)