England Wales N Ireland! Wheres Scotland?
- Thread starter dem maser
- Start date
Elliott653
Member
- Messages
- 1,241
Why shouldn't the rest of the Union have a say? Maybe the Scots decide to stay. But, the rest of us want rid of them? The ungrateful so and so's.
Elliott653
Member
- Messages
- 1,241
But, the Scots won't be in a position to determine their own future. Salmond would run headlong into the warm (sic) embrace of Brussels. Their 'independence' would last just about as long as it will take for Salmond to sign the EU membership documents. Then Holyrood will become a rubber stamping institution. Some self determination that is.
Elliott653
Member
- Messages
- 1,241
My point is not whether Scotland should have a vote for independence. Rather, what is the point of it? Ultimately, it will achieve nothing for the man or woman on the street. I believe that this is being driven by the vainglorious Alex Salmond who sees his destiny to be Scotlands first President. Whoop de woo. If anyone can suggest anything else to be gained, I'd like to hear of it.
I think Alex is a patriot and who would blame him for pursuing a patriotic aim. While I don't like his politics I think he is a very clever politician and he has played this game very well so far.
Who knows where Northern Ireland may go in 10/30/50 years, one day there may be a vote to reunite Ireland. Before anyone even starts I am not expressing an opinion on that conversational hand grenade; just observing that one day demographics/ politics could make it a close call.
Elliott you make an interesting point, is the UK a better "parent" than Brussels - at least Brussels is not the "auld enemy". For those that recall the Scottish stance (of some) was well summed up in Trainspotting when the guys went on a trip to the country...............
It's SH*TE being Scottish! We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the f**king Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some hate the English. I don't. They're just w***ers. We, on the other hand, are COLONIZED by w***ers. Can't even find a decent culture to be colonized BY. We're ruled by effete as***les. It's a SH*TE state of affairs to be in, Tommy, and ALL the fresh air in the world won't make any f**king difference!
Beautifully put!
Who knows where Northern Ireland may go in 10/30/50 years, one day there may be a vote to reunite Ireland. Before anyone even starts I am not expressing an opinion on that conversational hand grenade; just observing that one day demographics/ politics could make it a close call.
Elliott you make an interesting point, is the UK a better "parent" than Brussels - at least Brussels is not the "auld enemy". For those that recall the Scottish stance (of some) was well summed up in Trainspotting when the guys went on a trip to the country...............
It's SH*TE being Scottish! We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the f**king Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some hate the English. I don't. They're just w***ers. We, on the other hand, are COLONIZED by w***ers. Can't even find a decent culture to be colonized BY. We're ruled by effete as***les. It's a SH*TE state of affairs to be in, Tommy, and ALL the fresh air in the world won't make any f**king difference!
Beautifully put!
Elliott653
Member
- Messages
- 1,241
In no way shape or form can England of the past 150 years be construed as 'aggressive' towards Scotland. As for them gaining independence. It will last only until the ink dries on their membership application to that oh so stable and democratically run European Union.
Personally, I'd like my home town, London, to declare UDI from the rest of the Union. We'd all be as rich as Croesus.
Personally, I'd like my home town, London, to declare UDI from the rest of the Union. We'd all be as rich as Croesus.
Parisien
Moderator
- Messages
- 34,927
You picked a defined era Elliott......but it wasn't always like that.
That was just a broad statement exampling the ways the world mostly used to be.....small countries suffered at the hands of larger neighbours......the list is endless.
Total independence is perhaps a pipe dream in the current world........but the freedom to make as many laws or changes to your own ways of doing things is perfectly ok
Very few political unions last any length of time......even the United Kingdom is time limited...why be surprised when thing like this arise?
P
That was just a broad statement exampling the ways the world mostly used to be.....small countries suffered at the hands of larger neighbours......the list is endless.
Total independence is perhaps a pipe dream in the current world........but the freedom to make as many laws or changes to your own ways of doing things is perfectly ok
Very few political unions last any length of time......even the United Kingdom is time limited...why be surprised when thing like this arise?
P
Elliott653
Member
- Messages
- 1,241
I'm not surprised. I'm not bothered either, as evidenced by my first post. I just think that the whole exercise is utterly pointless in the long term. It seems that a few discontents, who deeply resent something that happened many hundreds of years ago, are wasting everyone's time, money and energy to achieve a pointless, even Pyrrhic victory.
Let them go, say I. Just don't expect the rest of us to bail them out when the consequences of their trite, tribal actions bite them on the bum. The religious and political divide is certainly not confined to Northern Ireland. Rangers and Celtic tell you all that you need to know about the tensions simmering just below the tartan clad surface.
It will be fun to watch.
Let them go, say I. Just don't expect the rest of us to bail them out when the consequences of their trite, tribal actions bite them on the bum. The religious and political divide is certainly not confined to Northern Ireland. Rangers and Celtic tell you all that you need to know about the tensions simmering just below the tartan clad surface.
It will be fun to watch.
Parisien
Moderator
- Messages
- 34,927
I am not particularly bothered either Elliott.....but lots are.
The Rangers/Celtic issue is largely due to the famine exodus over here when 10000s fled to Glasgow....hence sowing the seeds for current tensions and rivalries.
Salmond is a very astute politician it seems, who knows where this will end up. History does repeat itself, in many ways and differing ways.
If any defined geographic area or demographic group wants to separate or go their own way then why not? Why should the UK be any different? Look how many states have been formed after the USSR collapse and release of their colonial "satellite" states? Should they be denied too...ok....lots of awful things happened post the 1989 break up.......but history is frequently not in the past........but alive and well in the descendants of those who made it.
P
The Rangers/Celtic issue is largely due to the famine exodus over here when 10000s fled to Glasgow....hence sowing the seeds for current tensions and rivalries.
Salmond is a very astute politician it seems, who knows where this will end up. History does repeat itself, in many ways and differing ways.
If any defined geographic area or demographic group wants to separate or go their own way then why not? Why should the UK be any different? Look how many states have been formed after the USSR collapse and release of their colonial "satellite" states? Should they be denied too...ok....lots of awful things happened post the 1989 break up.......but history is frequently not in the past........but alive and well in the descendants of those who made it.
P
Elliott653
Member
- Messages
- 1,241
I say once again. I'm no bothered about the result either way. I say once again, I believe the whole exercise to be utterly pointless as Scotland will be an independent nation state in name only. However, if the Scottish Nats believe that there will be no downside in this with regards to their relationship with England they are wrong. The Scots are not the only ones with long memories.
Ironically, it will be the Tories who will gain most from a split. Labour won 41 seats in the last General election. Without those seats, it will be impossible for them to form a workable government alone. Even with the Lib. Dems, they would struggle to control Westminster, post Scottish independence.
The Nationalists can not expect any Tory government in the near future to give them any quarter after a break away. The Tories have nothing to lose, having no (one?) seats north of the border.
It's not always good to get what you wish for.
Ironically, it will be the Tories who will gain most from a split. Labour won 41 seats in the last General election. Without those seats, it will be impossible for them to form a workable government alone. Even with the Lib. Dems, they would struggle to control Westminster, post Scottish independence.
The Nationalists can not expect any Tory government in the near future to give them any quarter after a break away. The Tories have nothing to lose, having no (one?) seats north of the border.
It's not always good to get what you wish for.
Parisien
Moderator
- Messages
- 34,927
Its probably the failure of neo-socialist policies of labour and the abberration of a Con-Dem shotgun marriage that has spurred things on in the last few years..........and as ever people will more likely vote against something.....than for something.
No-one truly knows what will happen.......bizarrely you could find Scotland "independent", will be a closer ally as a separate entity than they are currently as a disgruntled union member.
There are gains............and there will be loses.....................
P
No-one truly knows what will happen.......bizarrely you could find Scotland "independent", will be a closer ally as a separate entity than they are currently as a disgruntled union member.
There are gains............and there will be loses.....................
P
Parisien
Moderator
- Messages
- 34,927
....naw the OP deserves hung, drawn and quartered....ehhhhh?..... ( to the Paris mini-meet crew!!!!)
P
reservoirfrog
Member
- Messages
- 1,368
we used to be independant Dem.
its not really a question of breaking away from the union........most scots would'nt want that. but its been the reason d'etre for the scotish nation party since its inception. its the only thing that Alex Salmon exists for. think of him as our right wing nationalist extremist, the scotish national front.
when push comes to shove only a minority will vote for it. the rest will realise that a country of only around 5 million with very little industry cannot support its self. europe will be bailing it out from the get go.
london has more chance of existing as an independant soveriegn state than scotlaand.
reservoirfrog
Member
- Messages
- 1,368
hardley the opinion of the rest of scotland. Are you seriously suggesting that a work of sensationalist fiction is representational of what the scots are. or did you just like it because thats what you think we are all like. would we then look to "shameless" as an acurate representation of the english ??