Clutch judder when cold, help ...

[Fossy]

Hi all,

I have had my 4200 camb for 2 months now, and a problem with the clutch is getting worse. It revs clean and noise free when in neutral, but when cold in 1st or reverse, it judders badly as soon as I start to pull away. This scenario clears up by 90% once the car is warmed up, but still gives a little rattle from the clutch area each time i pull away with " weird sound" ?? until the clutch is fully engaged. If i drive it harder, the clutch bites well but slips occasionally, but has never dropped a gear or returned to neutral, and changes are fluid.
I know I need to get it sorted and am not driving it at the moment due to this, but as a newbie to the wonderful world of Maserati's, I have no knowledge of anyone who could service my car.
After reading through many post re servicing, I would choose an independent service center preferably due to cost reasons.
Can anyone please recommend a company within, or near the South East/Essex area to conduct the work please ?
Funny it didn't make any of these noises when I bought it, and have not driven it hard either, nor use auto mode.

Many thanks for any help received.

 

[Woody]

If its any consolation, mine occasionally judders and has done since I bought it nearly 2 years ago. Its only really does it a)when cold and b) on clow movements when I'm light on the throttle.

I've had the car inspected (PPI), serviced twice and looked at for a "health check" in that time, its never been flagged as an issue. I've also done c 20k miles in that time.

It would be worth getting an Indi to look at it, but I suspect it might be a "they all do that, sir", depending on the severity.

 

[BennyD]

Try getting the clutch parameters reset at your local Indie. That should return everything to its optimal setting and may clean up the shifts. Worth a try I reckon.

 

[conaero]

Yes, as Benny says, get into Rob at Grimaldi and let him wave his magic fingers, you might get lucky. Start at 4.9 and work downwards till the bit feels its fastest, but Rob will sort you out.

 

[ENZ525]

Hi Fossy, Roberto at Grimaldi Engineering (Halstead, CO9 2SZ) also gets my vote...
he has been looking after my cars for the past few years and I would not hesitate to recommend him.
Regards,
Enzo.

 

[lozcb]

Hi all,

I have had my 4200 camb for 2 months now, and a problem with the clutch is getting worse. It revs clean and noise free when in neutral, but when cold in 1st or reverse, it judders badly as soon as I start to pull away. This scenario clears up by 90% once the car is warmed up, but still gives a little rattle from the clutch area each time i pull away with " weird sound" ?? until the clutch is fully engaged. If i drive it harder, the clutch bites well but slips occasionally, but has never dropped a gear or returned to neutral, and changes are fluid.
I know I need to get it sorted and am not driving it at the moment due to this, but as a newbie to the wonderful world of Maserati's, I have no knowledge of anyone who could service my car.
After reading through many post re servicing, I would choose an independent service center preferably due to cost reasons.
Can anyone please recommend a company within, or near the South East/Essex area to conduct the work please ?
Funny it didn't make any of these noises when I bought it, and have not driven it hard either, nor use auto mode.

Many thanks for any help received.

Are we sure its a judder rather than a squeal , possible its the clutch plate fingers sticking due to cold and lack of use , they do get mildly corroded and dry if so its a future prooblem and one to get sorted soon as (maybe just some lubrication needed , if its more of a squeal its the spiggot bearing , which causes no harm other than an irritating embarassing noise , get it sorted when the clutch is due for renewal it only £15.00


regards loz

 

[Emtee]

Hi Fossy, some questions if I may?

Is the "weird sound" a metallic clunk? Do you feel a shunt?
When you say judder, do you mean the car physically judders?
Does your car live outside?
Have you noticed a soft squeal sound when pulling away (often likened to the hoot of an owl)?
Have you had your PIS settings checked and, if need be, adjusted?
Do you have any history on the clutch? - receipts to show when it was last changed? If yes release bearing and spigot bearing also changed? Any SD reading of the last recorded clutch wear?

Loz has pretty much covered the likely causes, but the answers to the questions above will help guide you to whether it's a worn or poorly calibrated clutch, a glazed flywheel, a loose spigot bearing or worn finger springs.

Regards, Miles.

 

[Fossy]

Hi Fossy, some questions if I may?

Is the "weird sound" a metallic clunk? Do you feel a shunt?
When you say judder, do you mean the car physically judders?
Does your car live outside?
Have you noticed a soft squeal sound when pulling away (often likened to the hoot of an owl)?
Have you had your PIS settings checked and, if need be, adjusted?
Do you have any history on the clutch? - receipts to show when it was last changed? If yes release bearing and spigot bearing also changed? Any SD reading of the last recorded clutch wear?

Loz has pretty much covered the likely causes, but the answers to the questions above will help guide you to whether it's a worn or poorly calibrated clutch, a glazed flywheel, a loose spigot bearing or worn finger springs.

Regards, Miles.

Hi Miles and everyone who has kindly replied.

I spoke to grimaldi today and explained what was happening, the violent hammering metalicjudder noise when pulling away etc , he said if its making noises like that, and slipping here and there, no ammount of computer adjustment will make a difference, but sounds like its the original clutch in there which is 8 years old and just starting to break down. He said spigot would cause a howl or other noise etc, but not violent noises like im hammering. Bummer, not what i was hoping for but its booked in for a definitive diagnosis and fix.

Im guessing it is the original as i cant find any evidence amoung all the paperwork i have which suggests its been changed, and that would be paperwork worth passing on to future owners like me !

O well £2000+ later as i'm going to get the spigot, release bearing, clutch and fluids all done in one hit, plus F1 relay and other items known to cause problems. While its open its stupid not to change everything i think.

I will let you all know whats what as it goes in this wednesday.

Thanks to all of you, cant beleive how friendly this place is.

 

[Emtee]

Sorry it's turning out to be such a big bill in your early days of ownership Fossy, but if it is the original clutch then it is due and it'll tighten everything up considerably once done.

I'd be interested to hear Roberto's comments once he gets inside, as these symptoms are becoming more common it seems.

Regards, Miles.

 

[jpmondalek]

O well £2000+ later as i'm going to get the spigot, release bearing, clutch and fluids all done in one hit, plus F1 relay and other items known to cause problems. While its open its stupid not to change everything i think.

Don't forget the F1 sensor!

 

[Fossy]

Hi Fossy, some questions if I may?

Is the "weird sound" a metallic clunk? Do you feel a shunt?

Regards, Miles.

Miles, I do get a metallic heavy clunk or donk as I select R or 1 from neutral, a hooting noise also, and the worse bit of all...........this bloody knock knock knock knock from the clutch area as you pull away which clears up totally once engaged. I also get clutch slip in most gears from time to time under soft or hard acceleration, but it has never returned to N, never had the gear selector flash, and the gear changes are fluid and tight instantly when selected.

 

[conaero]

I would say your spring fingers on the pressure plate are bust, or in the state of busting, coupled with a worn plate, and stuffed spigot bearing, I thing you really have had the best out of that one. Did id not do this on the test drive?

Who did you buy it from?

But worst of all, whose is that pink KA in the background of your avatar....shocking!!!

 

[Emtee]

I think Matt's probably right Fossy. From your description there are a couple of things that could be happening...

The clutch has worn beyond what the PIS system / setting can cope with, and / or the finger springs are dodgy meaning the clutch position is inconsistent.

Even with these problems you won't necessarily drop a gear or have the flashing gear indicator. The indicator is there to show an operation that could not be completed properly and dropping a gear (or back to neutral) is the rescue, but this is not the case. The operation was completed, but in a very clunky way.

I guess there's a chance that the F1 pump could be dodgy, but the symptoms you describe don't fit. If you're having it checked, they'll look there also. I assume you can hear the pump priming when you unlock the car?

A question. How do you know you're getting clutch slip under acceleration? Squeal? Is this irrespective of whether your changing gear or not? If this is the case the SD2 should show a high glaze reading and it's the classic sign of a clutch that's served it's time.

The hoot sounds like you're spigot as Matt mentions.

Can I ask where you purchased the car from? Were you given an SD clutch wear reading? PM me if you like, but if you were given a reading that gave you confidence to think there was mileage in the clutch, it's rather disappointing you're having to face a large bill unexpectedly and so soon into ownership.

Regards, Miles.

 

[Fossy]

Ok, I have an update, which is factual as its in bits.

The clutch was 90% worn on the readout, but I know thats to be sniffed at as far as accuracy is concerned, but I intend to keep the car as quite frankly, Iv fallen head over heels..................
A new clutch has been fitted inc. a Hills Release bearing which slaughter the maserati ones which have been long term failing. New spigot B, Clutch sensor, F1 relay, Hydraulic flush and fill, gearbox oil and all associated things, plus i=I needed a new seal in the gearbox (sounds nice doesn't it !) as the one I had a teeny little leack from a well known failing seal which i'm glad was picked up on which the whole thing was stripped. All in its going to cost me, but i gave up racing motorbikes a couple of years ago due to a bad accident, and sold all my stuff, inc. my bikes, so i'd rather spend it on making sure this bugger is right.

As for the knocking noise on pull away..............I have herd this a few times in the past from people I know who have owned them too but didn't connect. Get this ..............
Maserati Exhaust manifolds are twin skinned, and the inner skin detaches from the outer skin after a number of years and causes a knocking or rattling which sounds like the exhaust is knocking on something metallic under the car. Exactly the noise i'm getting!
Attempts to rectify the problem in the past have included trying to strip the inners out, drilling small holes and welding the inner back etc, which has stopped it for a time, then it returns. It happens on short journey cars mainly due to condensation between the inner and outer parts causing the connecting spots to erode. Once the exhause warms up, the noise decreases due to expansion of the inner lining, but I still got a little knocking even when warm. When the car was in N when cold, it would rev cleanly without noise, but when 1st or REVwas selected, I'd pull away and the bloody knocking would start. Reason was explained to me - in N, there is no forces or load from engine to rear wheels, but in gear, when you pull away, the engine is forcing the whole transmission to turn the wheels which causes the engine to twist or tilt the opposite way to the output direction. The exhausts are pretty rigid and bolted together throughout their length, and the slight twist causes the outer and inner parts of the manifold to be able to make enough contact to generate this noise, but not when in neutral.

Ok, a new manifold is £2000+VAT each side, cough splutter ........... and same problem potentially down the line. After market one is single skin so fit and forget ???? or just put little crimps in the header tubes where not noticed through to the cat, hey prestow, the outer and inner are now as one and technically the noise should cease. I reasearched this problem through Maserati service and they agreed with me that this is excactly the cause of the noise, so anyone else getting a tapping/knocking noise when cold on pullaway .........you now know.

Thanks for all your replies everyone, appreciated each one. Cant wait to get the car back tommorow (fri 28th) to give her a drive.

 

[dickygrace]

Cheers for the info Fossy, sounds like a hefty bill for you, hope you have some trouble free motoring for a while now.

 

[Emtee]

Thanks for the update Fossy, particularly the bit about the exhaust. I don't recall that being mentioned in this regard on the forum before, so it's valuable information. I had a Hill Engineering bearing fitted to my 4200 and rated it very highly.

Admire your attitude to such a big bill, but guess that at 90 percent, it was going to come sooner rather than later.

I suspect the car will be transformed when you get it back, so hopefully the drives ahead will dull the pain of the bill.

Regards,

 

[halbe01]

Aha! I had the exact same rattle on my 4200. It was the bane of my life for some time - especially at times like when i was sitting at the lights being all proud of my cool car and then i pull away with a great rattling noise which shouted 'poor quality' to anyone who was listening! The local indie (Autofficina) spent quite a bit of time trying to diagnose the issue - because as you say it's not reproducible except when the car is actually moving. In the end they worked it out and I don't think the fix itself was overly complicated - a bit of welding sorted it out. They came to exactly the same conclusion you did - the two layers of the manifold rattling together.

If anyone has similar issues then I'm sure Autofficina can either fix it for you, or let you know in more detail what they did so someone else can fix it.

Cheers,
Ben.

 

[Fossy]

Woo Hoo, Got my car back today. No Hooting, no slip at all, gear changes are fluid and tight, the car feels like someone else's to be honest. Wow what a difference. Even the pullaways are instant and power delivery is so nice as the clutch is actually doing what it should do.

Just got to glue the ''AUTO'' button now to stop it ever being used again. Ok, it wasn't for free as you can imagine, but when I drove it, it was worth every penny.

 

[Parisien]

Great news Fossy....enjoy every single squeeze of the loud pedal!!!!


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