Brexit!

Trev Latter said:
On the subject of voting, there's one question that springs to mind that nobody's dared to mention yet...What's going to happen with the Eurovision song contest if we leave? Will we need to be invited to participate and if we stay, are we going to be subject to yet more political voting. (yes I realise that's technically three questions) :D
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As Israel and Russia get to join in we will probably be allowed to stay in. I imagine we would get less votes than we do now, if that's possible! [emoji3]
 
TridentTested said:
Most think the EU bureaucracy is costing loads. In fact the Commission has fewer employees than Leeds Council.

As for the question of why we need local authorities, regional authorities, and national authorities - this is a timeless question which every country wrestles with. Some even go further and have neighbourhood authorities below local authorities. At least the UK avoids that.
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The Commission is only one part of the EU bureaucratic chain.

It's quite clear to many people that large organisations have a tendency to become inefficient, and the EU behemoth is a stunning example of the breed. It has all the ingredients to be world class at waste - in general not accountable to the people who pay for it, supported by an ever growing number of parties with differing cultures, viewpoints and expectations, and faced with essentially insurmountable problems on a vast scale. Yet we have all somehow allowed it to come into existence, fund it, and employ people to prescribe the allowable length and curvature of a cucumber. I'm not aware of a similar department in Leeds... Madness.

A great deal of good comes out of the EU system, but unfortunately a great deal of nonsense does too. It's not clear to me whether I will personally be better off if the UK stays in or leaves the EU; as I've said before, I suspect it will be fairly hard to tell overall, regardless of which way the vote goes.
 
Zep said:
As Israel and Russia get to join in we will probably be allowed to stay in. I imagine we would get less votes than we do now, if that's possible! [emoji3]
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It would be a good thing not to be invited, then it would not be on our TV
Another reason for leaving!
 
Trev Latter said:
On the subject of voting, there's one question that springs to mind that nobody's dared to mention yet...What's going to happen with the Eurovision song contest if we leave? Will we need to be invited to participate and if we stay, are we going to be subject to yet more political voting. (yes I realise that's technically three questions) :D
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At last a black & white reason to leave.
 
At first I wasn't sure - in or out, now I am undecided. I thought I would wait until after Cameroons extended trip to that European country that thinks it runs Europe, they even call themselves Europeans. Sorry but I am British and proud of it.
However after his trip I thought there would be a rush of reasons from both sides on why we should either stay or go and equally valid reasons for the opposite of whatever party/person/organisation was expressing their views at the time.

How mistaken was I?

I have learnt more from reading the forum discussions than all of those we voted to lead us have managed to present in the last week.

With the Eurovision debate my mind is made up - OUT.

Then of course the 6 Nations Rugby would be 5 Nations again as France and Italy would be the same
 
At least they haven't got Chris Evans hosting it. Now that would be a step too far!

On a slightly more serous note, what Drew mentioned regarding the NHS is pretty much spot on. When Toni came out of hospital some three years ago now, she needed about 18 months of physio to make a decent recovery. NHS guy gave her some coloured rubber bands and sent her on her way with pretty much no follow up at all for months. Fortunately for Toni, she had private treatment more or less weekly to start with, ending in monthly visits. The guy looking after her was a senior guy at the local hospital. He was quite open about the fact the treatment wasn't available due to lack of funding being allocated to that department. Absolutely first class guy who genuinely cared too. As a result she made pretty much a full recovery, so it was all worthwhile. On the whole I think we have a great health service in this country. The level of care Toni had was outstanding for the really serious stuff and that was all down to the individuals looking after her. If it were better organised it could be so much better though.
 
rockits said:
You must be one of the lucky few that had good experiences of the NHS.
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I certainly have had good experiences with the NHS but don't just take my word for it, do a bit of googling....

NHS top, USA bottom: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...rn-countries-with-us-coming-last-9542833.html

http://www.health.org.uk/sites/defa...SCompareWithHealthSystemsInOtherCountries.pdf

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/hea...ng-best-health-care-systems-in-the-world.html

Of course it's a massive enterprise, and you'll always find someone who can tell you they waited on a trolley for eight hours, but it is way way better than the alternatives. If you break it up, like you say you want to, you will end up with an American system which only makes big pharma and the consultants super-rich and leaves everyone else under-provided.
 
My family uses the NHS every week. They have been excellent for over15 years with us (and that takes some doing)
The nurses though do tell a sad story and in my case we rely on their expertise and caring nature against many odds
Long Live NHS and keep it away from the Tories
 
NHS as said is first class if you need A&E.
The staff are in general excellent.
The issue for me is lack of communication between departments and other medical professionals. Seen it so often first hand.
It is basic stuff like "losing" files and records because someone was looking at it recently and it isn't back where it should be.
Had a classic example yesterday. Went to optician who needs to refer me to the hospital. However he has to write my doctor who has to pass on the referral to the hospital.
Doctor does nothing other than act as a postbox. Issue is when whoever commissioned the system didn't actually check that the ophthalmic profession system is compatible with the new hospital one. So if I don't hear anything I chase my doctor who isn't involved and waste their time! Optician says he understands this goes in several areas of NHS.
He related several areas of gross waste of money with systems that don't work or vastly overpriced.
 
Harking back to the equalisation of taxes point raised some days ago, France has just obtained €1.6 billion from Google in taxes the company thought it didn't need to pay.

Remind me, when the UK put pressure on the Chocolate Factory, how much was coughed up? I believe it was just £130 million. Splendid piece of hard-hitting negotiation there!
 
drewf said:
A great deal of good comes out of the EU system, but unfortunately a great deal of nonsense does too. It's not clear to me whether I will personally be better off if the UK stays in or leaves the EU; as I've said before, I suspect it will be fairly hard to tell overall, regardless of which way the vote goes.
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Drew - there is the rub. Facts are scarce and the whole debate is based on fear. I am sad to say it will come down to gut feel as the politicians wil try their hardest to obfusticate the issues.
 
I don't think we can ever obtain true facts of statistics we can rely on to allow anyone to make an informed decision. Even if they were available I am not sure you could trust them.

It sounds poor but an old school gut feeling is maybe the best we can hope to use. I use it all the time and many in business do all the time and have done for many years. You make a decision and either it does or it doesn't work as you hoped. Either way you deal with it.
 
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