Contigo
Sponsor
Interesting article I read at the weekend.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...LEX-BRUMMER-pro-EU-explains-changed-mind.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...LEX-BRUMMER-pro-EU-explains-changed-mind.html
Brexit!
- Thread starter SimonCC
- Start date
Steve GS
Member
i hope so I'll probably have a leaving party.
BenjaminBraddock
New Member
Just to throw a little balance into the conversation - while I had swayed towards OUT as I want to see us manage our trade agreements and borders, and I have total confidence in the UK being able to do this rather than being dependent on the faceless Brussels bureaucrats, I need to understand what we get for our £33m net daily payment (£55m gross) and how the UK benefits. This needs to be explained, as I assume it greases the wheels of trade between us and the other EU countries, as well as a whole host of other unexplained benefits.
I think its too easy to yell OUT just yet - there are obviously pros and cons for both arguments - we need to understand the risks associated to leaving. I personally hope the risks are not unovercomable so I can vote OUT, but if those risks could mean significant negative impact to the UK then this would put a different slant on things...
One thing is for sure though, our roads, GPs, hospitals, schools, housing cannot continue to cope with more and more immigration.
I think its too easy to yell OUT just yet - there are obviously pros and cons for both arguments - we need to understand the risks associated to leaving. I personally hope the risks are not unovercomable so I can vote OUT, but if those risks could mean significant negative impact to the UK then this would put a different slant on things...
One thing is for sure though, our roads, GPs, hospitals, schools, housing cannot continue to cope with more and more immigration.
Wack61
Member
Yes it is interesting, more to show that the UK is now banking and servicing biased. What happened to manufacturing and innovation
It went to the Far East
When I started providing transport for the manufacturing company I still occasionally do some courier work for all their suppliers were in the UK.
Castings, springs,bearings,pressings
The problems started when their European competitors started sourcing supplies from the Far East so they became uncompetitive, they resisted for a long time because the MD was a true Brit and the company had a lot of loyalty amongst its customers but eventually they had no choice.
As an example a casting they were paying £120 for from a UK supplier could be delivered to the factory for £70
Eventually the factory went from manufacture to just final assembly and as a concequence the workforce went from 50-60 skilled men to 10 semi skilled men.
Unfortunately when I see links like the one above and all I read is London and banking through the whole article, I wonder what will happen if we do vote out.
Two points of view on Granada news, one arguing against how much money we give to the EU, the other making the point that the EU has funded regional development with the money we get back
The question is would our government invest in the UK regions if they had a free hand or just pump more money into London
dunnah01
Member
Probably the second one irrespective of the EU in/out.. - Northern Powerhouse & HS2 are funded primarily by China and America through deals brokered with EU assistance.
We currently trade about £500bn withthe EU. We are in so can help make the rules - if we we're out we'd have to follow rules we can't set if we want to keep the trade
rockits
Member
This is definitely a great point. If all or a heavy percentage of the money we have available that is not given to the EU after exit needs to be spent in Britain to make us GREAT again.
We had a desperate project of a decent size industrial estate of about 50 units/businesses that have shocking Internet connections. Approx 1mb/s downstream & about 2mb/s upstream. Debilitating and stiffling for all these businesses who cannot work well due to this fundamental lack of a decent Internet connection. We put a proposal together to the whole estate to put an entire local fibre infrastructure of about 20km of OM4 fibre around the estate. Then a 1gb fibre circuit on a 1gb bearer divided up to give approx 20mb/s each. This was agreed and we pushed forward to apply for the funding.
The upfront initial capaital costs were to be funded by the govt's BDUK Connection Voucher Scheme giving each business a voucher of up to £3k. The govt. committed £100m of funding last year for BDUK. It was poorly advertised, not known about & a bit of a failure. This year the funding was reduced to £40m but better advertised & a great success. However £40m is a massivy laughably inadequate amount of money and it ran out in October! Now we have been told there is no similar fund for 2016 so this project has no funding now. We are considering privately funding this ourselves now & at £100k investment it is a big investment for us as a small business.
Our politicians TALK of a better Connected Britain and commit a laughable £40m to do it. Ze Germans in comparison have the green light on a project with a committed fund of 2.7bn EURO's to give the whole country a min. 50mb/s internet connection by 2018! Now that is how to do it!!
It has taken BT OpenReach over 4 months, 13 visits, about 20 odd engineers to install a single additional telepgragh pole to give me a new single analogue phone line to make an analogue phone call! I still have no working line. Pathetic, hopeless and woefully expensive to achieve nothing. Laughable. We will take 100 years or longer to get a better Connected Britain at this rate with these methods. We have the technology to be able to deliver 100mb-1gb connections to every business/household in the UK. We are just not doing it the right way for various reasons.
Unless the money saved is used and used well/wisely for projects like this then we are wasting our time & it makes no difference.if we are in the EU or not. We need better roads, infrastructure, healthcare, investment into manufacturing/engineering, small business. Stop allowing big businesses to avoid paying their dues and contribute correctly.
There is SO much wrong & fundamentally it is not that hard to fix. Stop dilly dallying about & take a lot of tough/difficult & unpopular decisions to fix the fundamental & underlying issues. Stop supporting big businesses who pay little tax and are big enough to skirt round rukes/regs/law. There careless about everyone except themelves. These company's won't make Britain GREAT again.
We need to support the small guys and individuals with great talent/experience. We need to support creativity & innovation. If by leaving the EU we can fund and do this better (that we are obviously not doing now!) I am 100% committed to it.
We had a desperate project of a decent size industrial estate of about 50 units/businesses that have shocking Internet connections. Approx 1mb/s downstream & about 2mb/s upstream. Debilitating and stiffling for all these businesses who cannot work well due to this fundamental lack of a decent Internet connection. We put a proposal together to the whole estate to put an entire local fibre infrastructure of about 20km of OM4 fibre around the estate. Then a 1gb fibre circuit on a 1gb bearer divided up to give approx 20mb/s each. This was agreed and we pushed forward to apply for the funding.
The upfront initial capaital costs were to be funded by the govt's BDUK Connection Voucher Scheme giving each business a voucher of up to £3k. The govt. committed £100m of funding last year for BDUK. It was poorly advertised, not known about & a bit of a failure. This year the funding was reduced to £40m but better advertised & a great success. However £40m is a massivy laughably inadequate amount of money and it ran out in October! Now we have been told there is no similar fund for 2016 so this project has no funding now. We are considering privately funding this ourselves now & at £100k investment it is a big investment for us as a small business.
Our politicians TALK of a better Connected Britain and commit a laughable £40m to do it. Ze Germans in comparison have the green light on a project with a committed fund of 2.7bn EURO's to give the whole country a min. 50mb/s internet connection by 2018! Now that is how to do it!!
It has taken BT OpenReach over 4 months, 13 visits, about 20 odd engineers to install a single additional telepgragh pole to give me a new single analogue phone line to make an analogue phone call! I still have no working line. Pathetic, hopeless and woefully expensive to achieve nothing. Laughable. We will take 100 years or longer to get a better Connected Britain at this rate with these methods. We have the technology to be able to deliver 100mb-1gb connections to every business/household in the UK. We are just not doing it the right way for various reasons.
Unless the money saved is used and used well/wisely for projects like this then we are wasting our time & it makes no difference.if we are in the EU or not. We need better roads, infrastructure, healthcare, investment into manufacturing/engineering, small business. Stop allowing big businesses to avoid paying their dues and contribute correctly.
There is SO much wrong & fundamentally it is not that hard to fix. Stop dilly dallying about & take a lot of tough/difficult & unpopular decisions to fix the fundamental & underlying issues. Stop supporting big businesses who pay little tax and are big enough to skirt round rukes/regs/law. There careless about everyone except themelves. These company's won't make Britain GREAT again.
We need to support the small guys and individuals with great talent/experience. We need to support creativity & innovation. If by leaving the EU we can fund and do this better (that we are obviously not doing now!) I am 100% committed to it.
highlander
Member
I have read most of the threads on here about this and although I sit in the OUT camp just now, the arguments most put forward about business and immigration are not in my thinking. I'm far more simply looking at we are massively over subscribed with beurocratic processes and administrators/politicians. Like a lot of us, I have the beast that is local authority, the beast that is Scottish government, the beast that is Parliament and lastly, the beast that is the EU I have to fund without a choice or any real power over what they do with my hard earned cash other than powerlessly watching them fill their own pockets! If only the voting paper had the option of getting rid of more than one of them I'd be happily skipping down to the polling station to put my X against getting rid.......
D Walker
Member
+1, one of the reasons I have never voted, I don't believe in or trust any of them, and TBH, I don't do politics or religion, been to too many conflicts because of both!!!
Trev Latter
Member
On the subject of voting, there's one question that springs to mind that nobody's dared to mention yet...What's going to happen with the Eurovision song contest if we leave? Will we need to be invited to participate and if we stay, are we going to be subject to yet more political voting. (yes I realise that's technically three questions) 
TridentTested
Member
A "zillion"?
Only 13% of new laws come from Brussels http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/uk-laws-from-eu/
That is so wrong. The NHS is simply the best health care system in the world bar none. Nothing comes close to it. France might have better facilities and shorter waiting lists but most people in France have costly private (une Mutuelles) insurance on top of the state provision. As for USA, if you want to break up the NHS and turn us into another USA you must out of your mind.
TridentTested
Member
They can not cope WITHOUT immigration. The UK is a net beneficiary of freedom of movement.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-far-bigger-question-substance-david-camerons
TridentTested
Member
Excellent post. This exemplifies to me why we need closer union and more freedom of movement. Your nightmare project sounds like it would benefit from some German know how, and more importantly, some German politicians rather than the self-serving idiots who have scuppered your scheme.
TridentTested
Member
Most think the EU bureaucracy is costing loads. In fact the Commission has fewer employees than Leeds Council.
As for the question of why we need local authorities, regional authorities, and national authorities - this is a timeless question which every country wrestles with. Some even go further and have neighbourhood authorities below local authorities. At least the UK avoids that.
rockits
Member
Thanks
We can do the project standing on our heads with our eyes closed. We just need £100k to fund it that is all! No Germans needed we are just as good as them if not better.
rockits
Member
Obviously a 'zillion' was a flippant word. Is 13% not a lot? I had the impression that there were hundreds if not thousands of new laws initiated by Brussels over our membership term especially more so in last 5 years.
You must be one of the lucky few that had good experiences of the NHS. If it were a private business it would have been busy several times over by now. It is Europe's biggest employer. Every time I have experienced the NHS it is the most expensive and most inefficient operation I have ever seen.
I pay good money that is hard to earn for private healthcare as it is not good enough. I pay a fair amount of corporation tax for 2 small business, employers NI, personal tax it goes on and on. What do I take out in return...not much. Pretty self sufficient. I give the govt and then the eu plenty of cash and get squat in return. Frustrated....angry....you bet I am. Enough is enough.
Now I am TOLD I need to give all employees a pension that will be worthless in 25 years time as all the dirty robbing financial sectors will plunder it before much is left at the end...Then the govt will tax it again. It is all wrong and flawed. Much work needs to be and should be done. Radical changes are needed.
The NHS is used and abused. Often seen as a cash cow for most tech consultants or companies. How many failed and over budget IT projects have taken place by our govt. & NHS. What a waste of cash that could have been used to fund development for a cure for Cancer or something much more worthwhile. Shocking and irresponsible at best in my book. Enough.
daverichardson
Member
Try a crowd funding outfit (Funding Circle) for the dosh
As for bureaucracy well I want LESS government not more so I can do without the EU be ruled by Westminster who I can re -elect or not
do without county councils, borough councils parish councils Mayors etc etc (who I know are electable) but they just happen to talk the loudest.
So yes Westminster is fine for me
As for bureaucracy well I want LESS government not more so I can do without the EU be ruled by Westminster who I can re -elect or not
do without county councils, borough councils parish councils Mayors etc etc (who I know are electable) but they just happen to talk the loudest.
So yes Westminster is fine for me
drewf
Member
Hmmmm.... The NHS is appallingly poorly managed and directed. It's one of the finest in the world for dealing with trauma (A&E, Heart attack etc), but away from that it's not even a 3rd rate system. The care is good on the whole, but the funding regime doesn't allow for anything recognisable in terms of efficiency. This isn't the fault of the front line medics, or even the hospital managers. No, the root issue is much deeper. I'll give you an example:
Sleep Apnoea. Can be life threatening, but generally a relatively stable long term condition. Treatment frequently produces very marked improvement in the quality of life of the patient, mostly in their waking day. They tend not to care that they snore heavily!
Private treatment schedule - overnight in a centre where monitoring is performed to ascertain the condition is present. Assuming it is and it's moderate/severe, the patient is woken, given a CPAP device (positive pressure airflow pump) and allowed to go back to sleep. In the morning, findings are discussed, and if appropriate the patient sent home with the machine and a smile. Takes 12 hours or so... I've over-simplified it, but the timescale is correct.
NHS treatment schedule - GP sorts an appointment in the sleep apnoea clinic (wait several weeks). Overnight stay where monitoring is performed to ascertain the condition is present. Patient sent home in the morning, pending consideration of the results. Letter sent to GP after a few weeks, patient visits GP, agrees to follow-up at clinic. Patient visits clinic after a few weeks (wait for appointment again). Is told they have sleep apnoea, and to make an appointment to be fitted up with a CPAP machine. After a few weeks, the patient visits clinic again, gets the CPAP and goes home. Takes around 6 months.... and much more face-time with the clinicians.
Best part is, throughout all that nonsense, the main players are very probably one and the same person, and the final position is identical. Have a think about which one is the most efficient and costs least, then consider which one we are all paying for through our various taxes.
No, the NHS is not a world class organisation, once you move away from the trauma side. They are rewarded for treating critical patients, but there's no reward mechanism for treating anyone else. There's not much interest in saving money either, as the people who do the 'saving' are merely inconvenienced by it, not rewarded with any kind of benefit. In contrast, I'd not want to have BUPA or similar looking after RTA victims either - it's horses for courses.
On the subject of voting, there's one question that springs to mind that nobody's dared to mention yet...What's going to happen with the Eurovision song contest if we leave? Will we need to be invited to participate and if we stay, are we going to be subject to yet more political voting. (yes I realise that's technically three questions)
I now remember why I started this form again, like it!
D Walker
Member
Yep,
When the mother in law died there was don't know how many months worth of drugs in the cupboard, unopened, I bagged them and took them to the health centre and chemist to restock, not interested, bin them, run out dates were 2017/2018!
I agree with Drew, at our local surgery you have to predict when you are ill so you can see a Doctor, however the care the Mil got when she had the stroke was world class.
When the mother in law died there was don't know how many months worth of drugs in the cupboard, unopened, I bagged them and took them to the health centre and chemist to restock, not interested, bin them, run out dates were 2017/2018!
I agree with Drew, at our local surgery you have to predict when you are ill so you can see a Doctor, however the care the Mil got when she had the stroke was world class.