Brexit Deal

[empzb]

I’d expect nothing less Jon.
Agreeing to Europe’s demands for the worst deal ever in Uk parliamentary history (against all advice/legal etc) then blaming others for not supporting it ( https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ve-brexit-deal-rebel-mp-leaflet-a8908056.html)

is not gutsy, ballsy or honourable.

It’s stupid, incompetent, naive and totally betrays what she said SHE would deliver.

It’s SO bad it’s suffered 3 humiliating defeats. Still unable to get the message our idiot PM will present it for a 4th time.....and defeat.

She’s had had 49 resignations with 32 of these relating to Brexit who opposed the stance she took.
She’s made the Uk a global laughing stock and destroyed any faith in the Tory party.

Desperate, she even tried to do a deal with Labour such was the mess she’s created.....even though as we all know it would split her party. That deal was rumoured to include a “Customs Union”.
So BRINO then not Brexit. There are also rumours of Tory preparations for a second referendum....

She’s distrusted by the electorate, distrusted by Mp’s, regarded as a liability by many within her own party who want her head, so is VERY well qualified for the worst PM and is a unquestionably the worst PM dancer of all time too.

Even Europe took the pish.......again.

OMFG.
It’s a pity she wont do the honourable thing like that sign did during her disastrous party conference speech (cough, cough cough) and just “f” off and do everyone a favour.

We disagree on Brexit. But I'm 100pc with you in this. In fact I'd prefer someone just to take account one way or another now.

 

[Wack61]

Nobody will take account though, boris & Cameron threw their cards in about 3am as the votes were still being counted, if she's opening the door to another referendum it's only because they're worried about losing votes to Brexit/green/libdem/UKIP as they all have a position where the 2 parties with the most to play for are in the wind.

What a mess

 

[MarkMas]

I posted this on Facebook last night and I think it sums up everything that has gone on.

Technically 17.4m wanted to leave based on the info they were given (most of which was false).
However, the British mentality of never admitting you were wrong or mislead (conned) means the 17.4m will say “we knew exactly what we were voting for”.

Technically 16.1m wanted to stay based on the info they were given (most of which was false).
However, the British mentality of 'nanny knows best' means never admitting you were wrong or mislead (conned) means the 16.1m will say “the others didn't know exactly what they were voting for”.

 

[doodlebug]

Technically 16.1m wanted to stay based on the info they were given (most of which was false).
However, the British mentality of 'nanny knows best' means never admitting you were wrong or mislead (conned) means the 16.1m will say “the others didn't know exactly what they were voting for”.

Technically 17.4m wanted to leave based on the info they were given (most of which was false).
FTFY

 

[whereskeith]

Just out of interest where do you guys see the federal EU project in 10 years time ? exactly the same as now or even more centralised control moving to the EU ?
where is the end point of "More Europe" ? what will it look like ?

 

[MaserCoupe]

Good question whereskeith. That’ll depend on what is happening with superpowers like China, USA, Russia etc and their presence on the global stage.

 

[MarkMas]

Technically 17.4m wanted to leave based on the info they were given (most of which was false).
FTFY

I think this is the big Remainer myth: that people who voted Leave did so on the basis of mostly false information, while those who voted Remain did so on the basis of mostly true information. This is a very common cognitive bias, where people imagine themselves to be well informed, but others to be poorly-informed. After all, how could someone disagree with my self-evident truth, unless they were misinformed?

Certainly lies were told and nonsense was spouted, but this occurred on both sides, with (I think) the Government and 'experts' generally providing dull and biased 'fear' in favour of Remain, and vigorous campaigners generally providing vivid and biased 'hope' in favour of Leave. But there is some evidence that the populace largely ignored all this and voted on a simple, and long-held, gut feel, which was roughly 'independence' vs 'joining in'.

Perhaps more interestingly, I have found that many Remainers voted to stay in a completely different EU, from the one that Leavers voted to get out of. Many Remainers I speak to say that they want to stay in (roughly) 'a democratic and collaborative association of free nations, dedicated to standards-setting and friction-less free trade', while many Leave voters tell me they want to get out of (roughly), 'an undemocratic anti-free-trade white European cartel that is on a mission to become a centrally-controlled superstate'. So my point is the real question was not 'in the EU' or 'out of the EU' but 'what is the EU'.

 

[MarkMas]

Just out of interest where do you guys see the federal EU project in 10 years time ? exactly the same as now or even more centralised control moving to the EU ?
where is the end point of "More Europe" ? what will it look like ?

The EU's own agenda is 'ever closer union' as set out explicitly in the Treaty of Rome. They would like to see a single currency (obvio), EU Central Bank, EU Foreign Service, EU Ambassadors, and an EU military. They are also attempting to take over non-EU agencies within Europe, such as the European Space Agency and the European Patent Office, with a view to making 'Europe' and 'the EU' synonymous. One EU Commissioner (I forget who) notoriously said that it didn't matter if the Euro succeeded or failed, as success of the Euro would naturally mean a closer union, and the failure of the Euro would precipitate a financial crisis making closer union necessary for survival.
Of course feelings within member states vary.
If the UK had managed to leave with some panache and credibility, it might have forced the EU to accept the idea of an inner and outer EU.

 

[MarkMas]

Good question whereskeith. That’ll depend on what is happening with superpowers like China, USA, Russia etc and their presence on the global stage.

...and it is interesting to me that many people who are anti superpowers like China, USA, Russia, are pro the EU becoming an equivalent superpower, arguing that 'superpowers are intrinsically bad' but 'our superpower is intrinsically good'.
They also argue that nation-states are bad, and racist and warlike, because of, y'know nationalism, but that a superpower like the EU would be good, because, er....

 

[MaserCoupe]

...and it is interesting to me that many people who are anti superpowers like China, USA, Russia, are pro the EU becoming an equivalent superpower, arguing that 'superpowers are intrinsically bad' but 'our superpower is intrinsically good'.
They also argue that nation-states are bad, and racist and warlike, because of, y'know nationalism, but that a superpower like the EU would be good, because, er....

Gosh Markmas you are on a roll today LOL you read too much into that. Do enjoy your posts but you do change your stance like the wind but still love you lots.

 

[MarkMas]

Gosh Markmas you are on a roll today LOL you read too much into that. Do enjoy your posts but you do change your stance like the wind but still love you lots.

Yeah, the more work I have to do, the longer my procrastination essays become!
I was not aware of changing my stance much, but you know what Emerson said, "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds'.

 

[whereskeith]

This made me chuckle today :-
Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Russia will destroy the European Union, according to a chief Brexit negotiator in Brussels.

Guy Verhofstadt has told The Times the rise of populism and the far-right could bring down the Union by 2024 if they cannot be replaced by a 'new vision of the EU

 

[MaserCoupe]

Yeah, the more work I have to do, the longer my procrastination essays become!
I was not aware of changing my stance much, but you know what Emerson said, "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds'.

I think the word you were looking for earlier is “cognitive dissonance”. Ps I have no idea who Emerson is. Did you mean Emerson Fittipaldi????

 

[GeoffCapes]

Technically 16.1m wanted to stay based on the info they were given (most of which was false).
However, the British mentality of 'nanny knows best' means never admitting you were wrong or mislead (conned) means the 16.1m will say “the others didn't know exactly what they were voting for”.

That is also a very valid argument. However, if you would be so kind as to pick a few large porkies told by the remain campaign I will re-assess.

However, I believe everything that the remain campaign came out with, which was called Fear' by the Brexiters should actually have been called 'Project Fact'.

 

[MaserCoupe]

The EU's own agenda is 'ever closer union' as set out explicitly in the Treaty of Rome. They would like to see a single currency (obvio), EU Central Bank, EU Foreign Service, EU Ambassadors, and an EU military. They are also attempting to take over non-EU agencies within Europe, such as the European Space Agency and the European Patent Office, with a view to making 'Europe' and 'the EU' synonymous. One EU Commissioner (I forget who) notoriously said that it didn't matter if the Euro succeeded or failed, as success of the Euro would naturally mean a closer union, and the failure of the Euro would precipitate a financial crisis making closer union necessary for survival.
Of course feelings within member states vary.
If the UK had managed to leave with some panache and credibility, it might have forced the EU to accept the idea of an inner and outer EU.

Again all of which has to be unanimously agreed upon in a vote by all of the 28 member countries....

 

[Wack61]

Again all of which has to be unanimously agreed upon in a vote by all of the 28 member countries....

Representatives, with a vested interest in lining their own pockets

Think you missed a bit

 

[MaserCoupe]

Representatives, with a vested interest in lining their own pockets

Think you missed a bit

What you mean like Farage? Yeah how could I have missed him...

 

[daverichardson]

Ah well
I would like to repeat one of my early posts.
I voted to leave. I did this based on some of the arguments put forward by both sides.
For every pro argument there seemed to me to be a valid counter argument.
I was not taken in by the red bus thingy and stuff like that. So I made an empirical decision.. I do not see myself as a European, I am different to a Greek or Frenchie or Spaniard etc. I see myself as British for all of its faults. I have not seen any real benefit in my area since joining the EU/Common Market and could give examples.
Nothing has changed these past 3 years to alter my view. There has been though a seismic shift in how the public view politicians
I will vote tomorrow and it will be for Nigel's party - warts and all because I still maintain I do not want to be part of this European Union. Others will disagree and that is as it should be

 

[MaserCoupe]

Ah well I would like to repeat one of my early posts.
I voted to leave. I did this based on some of the arguments put forward by both sides.
For every pro argument there seemed to me to be a valid counter argument.
I was not taken in by the red bus thingy and stuff like that. So I made an empirical decision.. I do not see myself as a European, I am different to a Greek or Frenchie or Spaniard etc. I see myself as British for all of its faults. I have not seen any real benefit in my area since joining the EU/Common Market and could give examples.
Nothing has changed these past 3 years to alter my view. There has been though a seismic shift in how the public view politicians
I will vote tomorrow and it will be for Nigel's party - warts and all because I still maintain I do not want to be part of this European Union. Others will disagree and that is as it should be

Hey it’s all good and gravy...
I think you’ll probably find that the French, the Germans, the Italians, the Greeks, the Austrians, The Dutch and the rest of the 27 etc, consider themselves as such first, (like us in that respect) before considering themselves as “Europeans” too... it’s only a state of mind. I have no fears of losing my identity as a Brit. I certainly don’t see the other 27 countries trying to influence my identity, my life or change me.

 

[Wanderer]

Ah well
I would like to repeat one of my early posts.
I voted to leave. I did this based on some of the arguments put forward by both sides.
For every pro argument there seemed to me to be a valid counter argument.
I was not taken in by the red bus thingy and stuff like that. So I made an empirical decision.. I do not see myself as a European, I am different to a Greek or Frenchie or Spaniard etc. I see myself as British for all of its faults. I have not seen any real benefit in my area since joining the EU/Common Market and could give examples.
Nothing has changed these past 3 years to alter my view. There has been though a seismic shift in how the public view politicians
I will vote tomorrow and it will be for Nigel's party - warts and all because I still maintain I do not want to be part of this European Union. Others will disagree and that is as it should be

The Westphalian Peace doctrine has had it’s day, people mainly align align social or economic lines now. First it was monarchs, then nationality, now this.

If you consider yourself British, then English too maybe? Northern or Southern, Lancastrian or (spit) Yorkist. Scouse or Manc, City or United, Stretford End or Scoreboard End? You can go on, and it becomes ever more divisive. Nationhood is lost, it’s had it’s place in the sun, time to move on. There are better concepts of belonging to cling onto!