Anyone had the jab yet?

Swedish Paul

Member
Messages
1,118
Can t believe we re all rushing in to have a vaccine that in comparison to other drugs and vaccines has been rushed through - were does it stop ? When the country is on its knees perhaps ? Myself and a few friends are seriously considering not having the second jab - why ? Because we don t trust the motives behind it and think its all a bit sinister and too convenient and don t like where its all heading but if you have total trust in our world leaders be my guest have one for me
Do you know Wattie?
 

Ali355

Member
Messages
47
You know the “world leaders” you refer to had F all to do with developing or signing off the vaccine? It was developed and released in record time because they ran all the stages of the trial in parallel, took a gigantic risk in ramping up production before getting clearance and recruited ten times the amount of clinical trail volunteers that they would do for a ‘normal’ clinical trial.
Fair enough I can see why folks would be wary of the mRNA vaccines but the science behind the Oxford/ AZ vaccine is no different to all the other vaccines you undoubtedly received in your life. The motives behind it are to stop what’s happening in India happening in this country. If left unchecked this virus would implode the healthcare system. It’s come close to doing that twice so far. Getting vaccinated is doing your bit towards stopping that happening. Yes there’s a chance you may get a reaction to what’s in the vaccine but that’s vanishingly small compared to the chance of you not getting an ICU bed if god forbid you needed one for any reason in the middle of another wave of covid. Car crash, heart attack, aneurism, stroke, cancer- all conditions irrespective of covid would be screwed as the ICUs would yet again be full of covid pts. Oxygen would be running short and lots and lots of people would die. That’s why there’s a push to get everyone jabbed. I’ve worked on the roll out of the vaccine. Every senior clinical person, every army logistics person, everyone eligible for vaccination including me has had the jab. If it was so sinister and we were aiming to do god knows what you think it’s gonna do, why would the people ‘on the inside’ get themselves vaccinated??
sometimes things are as simple as the appear. Get the jab, help the virus die out, get life back to some sort of normal.
/end rant.
 

Wattie

Member
Messages
7,110
You know the “world leaders” you refer to had F all to do with developing or signing off the vaccine? It was developed and released in record time because they ran all the stages of the trial in parallel, took a gigantic risk in ramping up production before getting clearance and recruited ten times the amount of clinical trail volunteers that they would do for a ‘normal’ clinical trial.
Fair enough I can see why folks would be wary of the mRNA vaccines but the science behind the Oxford/ AZ vaccine is no different to all the other vaccines you undoubtedly received in your life. The motives behind it are to stop what’s happening in India happening in this country. If left unchecked this virus would implode the healthcare system. It’s come close to doing that twice so far. Getting vaccinated is doing your bit towards stopping that happening. Yes there’s a chance you may get a reaction to what’s in the vaccine but that’s vanishingly small compared to the chance of you not getting an ICU bed if god forbid you needed one for any reason in the middle of another wave of covid. Car crash, heart attack, aneurism, stroke, cancer- all conditions irrespective of covid would be screwed as the ICUs would yet again be full of covid pts. Oxygen would be running short and lots and lots of people would die. That’s why there’s a push to get everyone jabbed. I’ve worked on the roll out of the vaccine. Every senior clinical person, every army logistics person, everyone eligible for vaccination including me has had the jab. If it was so sinister and we were aiming to do god knows what you think it’s gonna do, why would the people ‘on the inside’ get themselves vaccinated??
sometimes things are as simple as the appear. Get the jab, help the virus die out, get life back to some sort of normal.
/end rant.
It was developed and released in record time because they ran all the stages of the trial in parallel, took a gigantic risk in ramping up production before getting clearance and recruited ten times the amount of clinical trail volunteers that they would do for a ‘normal’ clinical trial.
Fair enough I can see why folks would be wary of the mRNA vaccines...... (by your own admission!)

And that is why some have concern about the long term potential affects.....when combined with what now seems to be an ongoing booster requirement programme or potential mix match future dosing.

There were other ways to stop/siow the spread initially to allow time to find a fully tested solution. Most politicians didn’t close borders though so you’re left dealing with the chaos they allowed in and whatever removal of your liberties they subsequently decide as a result.
 

Ali355

Member
Messages
47
I can’t speak to the political decisions. I could go off on one what we could have learned from Taiwan or NZ or other countries that took decisive action, or about the utter stupidity of the Christmas rules but I don’t think this is the time. I’m married to and spend most of my work time with clinicians. They’re priority is dealing what’s in front of them. Right now the vaccine is the best way out. Not risk free and not perfect but better than an endless cycle of waves and lockdowns.
With regards to the long term potential effects- mRNA was described to me like a message on a self destructing post it note. The body gets the instructions to build the spike protein, does so and the instructions are thrown in the bin. Nothing hangs around long enough to impact the long term other than the antibodies that the body produces. The ‘traditional’ vaccines use an inactivated pathogen, which is consistent with other vaccines that have been around for decades. Also if weighed up with the very real and debilitating ‘long covid’ symptoms we are seeing more and more of, it’s a risk I think is worth living with.
Maybe it’s just me. But I’ll happily put up with the removal of some of my liberties to help to ensure my clinically extremely vulnerable mum doesn’t get a virus that would most possibly end her life, and I’d happily take up a vaccine that I know will help to protect the life of my front line clincian wife. Everyone has their own equation of where they draw the line, but sometimes in society we need to do things that don’t benefit us individually but do help us all collectively. And now I really must shut up. Because I am beyond the post-fast ‘hangry’ phase, and I’m about to dig in to a second helping of cake.
 

Wattie

Member
Messages
7,110
I can’t speak to the political decisions. I could go off on one what we could have learned from Taiwan or NZ or other countries that took decisive action, or about the utter stupidity of the Christmas rules but I don’t think this is the time. I’m married to and spend most of my work time with clinicians. They’re priority is dealing what’s in front of them. Right now the vaccine is the best way out. Not risk free and not perfect but better than an endless cycle of waves and lockdowns.
With regards to the long term potential effects- mRNA was described to me like a message on a self destructing post it note. The body gets the instructions to build the spike protein, does so and the instructions are thrown in the bin. Nothing hangs around long enough to impact the long term other than the antibodies that the body produces. The ‘traditional’ vaccines use an inactivated pathogen, which is consistent with other vaccines that have been around for decades. Also if weighed up with the very real and debilitating ‘long covid’ symptoms we are seeing more and more of, it’s a risk I think is worth living with.
Maybe it’s just me. But I’ll happily put up with the removal of some of my liberties to help to ensure my clinically extremely vulnerable mum doesn’t get a virus that would most possibly end her life, and I’d happily take up a vaccine that I know will help to protect the life of my front line clincian wife. Everyone has their own equation of where they draw the line, but sometimes in society we need to do things that don’t benefit us individually but do help us all collectively. And now I really must shut up. Because I am beyond the post-fast ‘hangry’ phase, and I’m about to dig in to a second helping of cake.
So how do you feel about the vaccination of babies, pre adolescent kids then......those below 19?
Should they do their bit?

I understand why you’d want your Mum/ Wife protected.
 
Last edited:

Wattie

Member
Messages
7,110
Can t believe we re all rushing in to have a vaccine that in comparison to other drugs and vaccines has been rushed through - were does it stop ? When the country is on its knees perhaps ? Myself and a few friends are seriously considering not having the second jab - why ? Because we don t trust the motives behind it and think its all a bit sinister and too convenient and don t like where its all heading but if you have total trust in our world leaders be my guest have one for me
Brave post. A number of others share your concerns.
 

outrun

Centenary Club
Messages
4,649
You know the “world leaders” you refer to had F all to do with developing or signing off the vaccine? It was developed and released in record time because they ran all the stages of the trial in parallel, took a gigantic risk in ramping up production before getting clearance and recruited ten times the amount of clinical trail volunteers that they would do for a ‘normal’ clinical trial.
Fair enough I can see why folks would be wary of the mRNA vaccines but the science behind the Oxford/ AZ vaccine is no different to all the other vaccines you undoubtedly received in your life. The motives behind it are to stop what’s happening in India happening in this country. If left unchecked this virus would implode the healthcare system. It’s come close to doing that twice so far. Getting vaccinated is doing your bit towards stopping that happening. Yes there’s a chance you may get a reaction to what’s in the vaccine but that’s vanishingly small compared to the chance of you not getting an ICU bed if god forbid you needed one for any reason in the middle of another wave of covid. Car crash, heart attack, aneurism, stroke, cancer- all conditions irrespective of covid would be screwed as the ICUs would yet again be full of covid pts. Oxygen would be running short and lots and lots of people would die. That’s why there’s a push to get everyone jabbed. I’ve worked on the roll out of the vaccine. Every senior clinical person, every army logistics person, everyone eligible for vaccination including me has had the jab. If it was so sinister and we were aiming to do god knows what you think it’s gonna do, why would the people ‘on the inside’ get themselves vaccinated??
sometimes things are as simple as the appear. Get the jab, help the virus die out, get life back to some sort of normal.
/end rant.
Some of the most sensible words I have ever read on here, well done sir.

I also work in the area and where I fully understand each person’s own choice, i really don‘t think the messaging to those not experienced within science and/or medicine has been suitably educational. Luckily we are currently around 87% uptake when offered so the doubters are likely to still experience the benefit of the majority.
 

Wattie

Member
Messages
7,110
Some of the most sensible words I have ever read on here, well done sir.

I also work in the area and where I fully understand each person’s own choice, i really don‘t think the messaging to those not experienced within science and/or medicine has been suitably educational. Luckily we are currently around 87% uptake when offered so the doubters are likely to still experience the benefit of the majority.
I also don't think its helpful where the science and its interpretation/application is clearly different from one country to the next.

It fails to become science then and more of a "make the data fit your political objective'' approach.

''Some sort of normal'' @Ali355 - thats out the window for years and years.
 
Last edited:

Ali355

Member
Messages
47
So how do you feel about the vaccination of babies, pre adolescent kids then......those below 19?
Should they do their bit?

I understand why you’d want your Mum/ Wife protected.
My mums had two doses of Oxford/AZ. My wife two doses of Pfizer, I’ve had one dose of Oxford/AZ. I empathise with those who may query what long term impact it may have but to quote the great John Maynard Keynes “in the long run, we are all dead”.
There are clinical trials underway at the moment for secondary school age kids. From what I gather they are due to report back towards the end of this month/ early June. The daughter of the head of the vaccine roll out for the NHS in England took part in one of those trials. I don’t know for sure but I’m leaning towards it showing efficacy in teenagers.
Younger kids- it’s ethically more difficult to conduct trials in this group. Babies- again it’s the same. I’ve read it at least one case of a baby being born with covid antibodies after the mother was vaccinated in pregnancy. But we have inoculations for lots of diseases, so when the science shows it’s safe, I’m sure they will go that route. As the parent of a 9 year old, and having had covid, the scariest bit for me was when he caught it from us. We obviously all isolated and didn’t venture out til we had the all clear, and mercifully his symptoms were relatively mild but it was worrying nonetheless.
Differential application of the science- that’s where healthcare and politics don’t mix. From the inside (and in England) I think we’ve been v lucky that the fella running the NHS can run rings round the fella running the country. Look at India, Brazil and early on in the US to see what would have happened if he couldn’t.
My old man (god rest his soul) probably had some variant of polio in his early years- I say probably because he grew up in the middle of nowhere in what was then India in the 1930s. He was physically disabled for the rest of his life as a result. Polio these days in the UK at least is pretty much wiped out. No cases since the 80s. That’s singularly down to the vaccine invented in the 50s. Although Pfizer are working on an at home anti viral remedy for covid, I’m pretty sure the only way we get covid to be like polio will be with vaccination. Whether the post covid normal is months or years away depends mostly on (you guessed it) vaccination. I’m not for mandating it’s take up, I’m only lukewarm on vaccine passports (I want to travel). But I do think it’s the best way out.
I am definitely shutting up now. I only originally joined the forum to research my next car(!)
 

Wattie

Member
Messages
7,110
My mums had two doses of Oxford/AZ. My wife two doses of Pfizer, I’ve had one dose of Oxford/AZ. I empathise with those who may query what long term impact it may have but to quote the great John Maynard Keynes “in the long run, we are all dead”.
There are clinical trials underway at the moment for secondary school age kids. From what I gather they are due to report back towards the end of this month/ early June. The daughter of the head of the vaccine roll out for the NHS in England took part in one of those trials. I don’t know for sure but I’m leaning towards it showing efficacy in teenagers.
Younger kids- it’s ethically more difficult to conduct trials in this group. Babies- again it’s the same. I’ve read it at least one case of a baby being born with covid antibodies after the mother was vaccinated in pregnancy. But we have inoculations for lots of diseases, so when the science shows it’s safe, I’m sure they will go that route. As the parent of a 9 year old, and having had covid, the scariest bit for me was when he caught it from us. We obviously all isolated and didn’t venture out til we had the all clear, and mercifully his symptoms were relatively mild but it was worrying nonetheless.
Differential application of the science- that’s where healthcare and politics don’t mix. From the inside (and in England) I think we’ve been v lucky that the fella running the NHS can run rings round the fella running the country. Look at India, Brazil and early on in the US to see what would have happened if he couldn’t.
My old man (god rest his soul) probably had some variant of polio in his early years- I say probably because he grew up in the middle of nowhere in what was then India in the 1930s. He was physically disabled for the rest of his life as a result. Polio these days in the UK at least is pretty much wiped out. No cases since the 80s. That’s singularly down to the vaccine invented in the 50s. Although Pfizer are working on an at home anti viral remedy for covid, I’m pretty sure the only way we get covid to be like polio will be with vaccination. Whether the post covid normal is months or years away depends mostly on (you guessed it) vaccination. I’m not for mandating it’s take up, I’m only lukewarm on vaccine passports (I want to travel). But I do think it’s the best way out.
I am definitely shutting up now. I only originally joined the forum to research my next car(!)
Next car....give Richard Grace a call. Highly thought of around these parts.
Good luck with the search!
 
Last edited:

bigbob

Member
Messages
8,316
My mums had two doses of Oxford/AZ. My wife two doses of Pfizer, I’ve had one dose of Oxford/AZ. I empathise with those who may query what long term impact it may have but to quote the great John Maynard Keynes “in the long run, we are all dead”.
There are clinical trials underway at the moment for secondary school age kids. From what I gather they are due to report back towards the end of this month/ early June. The daughter of the head of the vaccine roll out for the NHS in England took part in one of those trials. I don’t know for sure but I’m leaning towards it showing efficacy in teenagers.
Younger kids- it’s ethically more difficult to conduct trials in this group. Babies- again it’s the same. I’ve read it at least one case of a baby being born with covid antibodies after the mother was vaccinated in pregnancy. But we have inoculations for lots of diseases, so when the science shows it’s safe, I’m sure they will go that route. As the parent of a 9 year old, and having had covid, the scariest bit for me was when he caught it from us. We obviously all isolated and didn’t venture out til we had the all clear, and mercifully his symptoms were relatively mild but it was worrying nonetheless.
Differential application of the science- that’s where healthcare and politics don’t mix. From the inside (and in England) I think we’ve been v lucky that the fella running the NHS can run rings round the fella running the country. Look at India, Brazil and early on in the US to see what would have happened if he couldn’t.
My old man (god rest his soul) probably had some variant of polio in his early years- I say probably because he grew up in the middle of nowhere in what was then India in the 1930s. He was physically disabled for the rest of his life as a result. Polio these days in the UK at least is pretty much wiped out. No cases since the 80s. That’s singularly down to the vaccine invented in the 50s. Although Pfizer are working on an at home anti viral remedy for covid, I’m pretty sure the only way we get covid to be like polio will be with vaccination. Whether the post covid normal is months or years away depends mostly on (you guessed it) vaccination. I’m not for mandating it’s take up, I’m only lukewarm on vaccine passports (I want to travel). But I do think it’s the best way out.
I am definitely shutting up now. I only originally joined the forum to research my next car(!)
Good to get some new perspective on this thread. For a while I did wonder whether Wattie was a Russian bot but I think there is a reasonable chance that he is real. He seems to me to be the guy nursing a pint in the corner who disagrees with the conversation at the bar whatever it happens to be about. There is actually no harm in that as, in my job, I really like talking to people I disagree with on many things as it helps me think better and I’m one of those old fashioned people who believes in free speech.

Anyway, the point people are debating about vaccine safety is now largely parked by the mass clinical trial that has been running for the last few months. If these things were materially damaging to short term health then we would already know this. Long term, who knows, but that’s the case with most drugs. Whether the risk profile of the first vaccines was excessive and/or they were rushed through does not matter as those that received them first were at a very high risk otherwise. There is an argument for young people risk assessing their need to have the vaccine but for older people there was only ever one choice - vaccines are the way to get us out of this far more quickly than would be case otherwise.

I’m now more interested in where we go from here. What will the next generation of Covid vaccines look like, how will they be administered, will they require top ups, will Covid go into regression like these things tend to do and, if so, how long will it take? If not then the world is going to be very small for 5-10 years until most adults are vaccinated in the third world. This, of course, will lead to massive wealth inequalities around the world which is the main travesty that is occurring as that will create a public health crisis that will be with us for the rest of the century.
 
Last edited:

DJS

Junior Member
Messages
70
In 1968 there was an outbreak of Hong Kong flu in the UK that killed many thousands , it was hardly mentioned in the media apart from - theres a bad flu going around , nothing like the project fear we have been bombarded with and don t they just love it good old Dr Shillary and that red haired lady Dr - Sarah something - you re all going to die if you as much as look at another person etc. lock your doors dont go out dont trust anybody they could be carriers and not even know it .
Even the head count of deaths is suspect - i.e . anybody who dies for any reason within 28 days of testing positive , very convenient for insurance sharks who don t have to pay out if death is related to a pandemic - let that sink in - theres a scandal brewing around that already .
Lets not forget its a fact that there is a 99.7% survival rate from covid and the PRC test is not accurate thats been proven - even the inventor said the same before he conveniently died the test was designed to pick up many false positives -perfect for ramping up project fear .The way they went on there should be a couple of million people dead by now -literally dropping in the streets . Then we had the Nightingale hospitals - remember them
I expected to see queues of ambos on the news outside the NEC with its 1500 beds but no nothing of the sort in fact I dont even think they had one patient .
Personally I know 2 people who had covid - like a bad flu they said - and I don t know anyone who died from or with covid -but then I don t live in an old peoples home - yet . Point is its the elderly and people with pre existing health conditions who have been worst affected by this nasty little virus and they should have been protected while the rest of us got on with it - like they did in Sweden .
This is more about control than a virus - think of the freedoms we ve lost - the jobs lost - the pubs and clubs lost - do you really think you re going to get back to "normal" maybe a new normal - a controlled normal - a cashless normal with social credit scores - a bit like China maybe - where it all began .
 

Zep

Moderator
Messages
5,581
What the last few posts have proved is that there is a broad set of views here, which I think is a good thing. We also seem to have avoided an argument on the subject, which is also good.
 

doodlebug

Member
Messages
703
In 1968 there was an outbreak of Hong Kong flu in the UK that killed many thousands , it was hardly mentioned in the media apart from - theres a bad flu going around , nothing like the project fear we have been bombarded with and don t they just love it good old Dr Shillary and that red haired lady Dr - Sarah something - you re all going to die if you as much as look at another person etc. lock your doors dont go out dont trust anybody they could be carriers and not even know it .
Even the head count of deaths is suspect - i.e . anybody who dies for any reason within 28 days of testing positive , very convenient for insurance sharks who don t have to pay out if death is related to a pandemic - let that sink in - theres a scandal brewing around that already .
Lets not forget its a fact that there is a 99.7% survival rate from covid and the PRC test is not accurate thats been proven - even the inventor said the same before he conveniently died the test was designed to pick up many false positives -perfect for ramping up project fear .The way they went on there should be a couple of million people dead by now -literally dropping in the streets . Then we had the Nightingale hospitals - remember them
I expected to see queues of ambos on the news outside the NEC with its 1500 beds but no nothing of the sort in fact I dont even think they had one patient .
Personally I know 2 people who had covid - like a bad flu they said - and I don t know anyone who died from or with covid -but then I don t live in an old peoples home - yet . Point is its the elderly and people with pre existing health conditions who have been worst affected by this nasty little virus and they should have been protected while the rest of us got on with it - like they did in Sweden .
This is more about control than a virus - think of the freedoms we ve lost - the jobs lost - the pubs and clubs lost - do you really think you re going to get back to "normal" maybe a new normal - a controlled normal - a cashless normal with social credit scores - a bit like China maybe - where it all began.
BTW, it's PCR, not PRC, unless of course you meant the place where the virus is believed to have emanated from.

PCR testing is accurate - it's the implementation and the timing during the life cycle of the infection that is giving errors. Before using Facebook as a medical journal, you should read Mullis's papers on PCR and note that it is almost certain that he did not say it was designed to pick up false positives. The nature of PCR means it is a qualitative test, not a quantitative test and the viral load in the patient can't be determined from the results it gets. I've worked on PCR systems for over 15 years now and we do everything we can to minimise false positives and negatives.

Also, where do you get the 99.7% survival rate from? The death rate varies significantly with the age of the patient. Hospital care is required for at least 10% of the over 50s who have caught it. The hospitals simply would not be able to cope if the virus was allowed free rein.
 

Wattie

Member
Messages
7,110
In 1968 there was an outbreak of Hong Kong flu in the UK that killed many thousands , it was hardly mentioned in the media apart from - theres a bad flu going around , nothing like the project fear we have been bombarded with and don t they just love it good old Dr Shillary and that red haired lady Dr - Sarah something - you re all going to die if you as much as look at another person etc. lock your doors dont go out dont trust anybody they could be carriers and not even know it .
Even the head count of deaths is suspect - i.e . anybody who dies for any reason within 28 days of testing positive , very convenient for insurance sharks who don t have to pay out if death is related to a pandemic - let that sink in - theres a scandal brewing around that already .
Lets not forget its a fact that there is a 99.7% survival rate from covid and the PRC test is not accurate thats been proven - even the inventor said the same before he conveniently died the test was designed to pick up many false positives -perfect for ramping up project fear .The way they went on there should be a couple of million people dead by now -literally dropping in the streets . Then we had the Nightingale hospitals - remember them
I expected to see queues of ambos on the news outside the NEC with its 1500 beds but no nothing of the sort in fact I dont even think they had one patient .
Personally I know 2 people who had covid - like a bad flu they said - and I don t know anyone who died from or with covid -but then I don t live in an old peoples home - yet . Point is its the elderly and people with pre existing health conditions who have been worst affected by this nasty little virus and they should have been protected while the rest of us got on with it - like they did in Sweden .
This is more about control than a virus - think of the freedoms we ve lost - the jobs lost - the pubs and clubs lost - do you really think you re going to get back to "normal" maybe a new normal - a controlled normal - a cashless normal with social credit scores - a bit like China maybe - where it all began .
Yup I agree with much of this. Not sure about the 99.7% tho.
a blanket solution has been applied to a scenario where a certain group in society is far more vulnerable to the virus- for now at least.

Cash is going next, expect a digital currency (Potentially with expiry dates) and the possibility of emergency Tax seizures to pay for all this debt.

Freedoms- not without a “passport” it looks like......even to attend a cinema or a concert etc etc
But you’ll still be able to mingle on the tube, one of the busiest most claustrophobic non social distancing places on the planet.
 
Last edited:

Wattie

Member
Messages
7,110
BTW, it's PCR, not PRC, unless of course you meant the place where the virus is believed to have emanated from.

PCR testing is accurate - it's the implementation and the timing during the life cycle of the infection that is giving errors. Before using Facebook as a medical journal, you should read Mullis's papers on PCR and note that it is almost certain that he did not say it was designed to pick up false positives. The nature of PCR means it is a qualitative test, not a quantitative test and the viral load in the patient can't be determined from the results it gets. I've worked on PCR systems for over 15 years now and we do everything we can to minimise false positives and negatives.

Also, where do you get the 99.7% survival rate from? The death rate varies significantly with the age of the patient. Hospital care is required for at least 10% of the over 50s who have caught it. The hospitals simply would not be able to cope if the virus was allowed free rein.
With your experience, Do you know what levels they were they cycling PCR tests at and why the levels were never disclosed by the Uk (any) govt?
Why don’t we know cycling levels now?

Your NHS comment is fair enough but it’s come at the expense of just about every other area of society.

Even now there’s a benchmark where the Uk can only get back to normal if “infections” don’t threaten the NHS.
This is where imo the whole thing falls down. Infections aren’t a bad thing as long as they’re not serious.....for a massive proportion of the population this is the case.
“Covid Admissions” would give a far better indication (given the PCR nonsense) of the seriousness of the virus and it’s impact on the population. Given the vaccine roll out this should be greatly minimised on the vulnerable if they indeed work as claimed.
 
Last edited: