3200, 4200, Spyder, and GranSport Aftermarket Rear Tie Rod replacement.

[CraigWaterman11]

Hey guys, just a quick update. Out of the five sets I put together from the material that came in they are all gone. In total I only bulk ordered enough material for 14 sets. It's what was necessary to get all the pricing down. When I get the other products, I have everything from Scotland, it's this side of the world that's dragging their feet, I will only have 9 sets left. So please PM me or whatever, I can reorder afterwards. I have an ebay account and maybe I can just put them on there so anyone in the world not on the forums but browse the web will have access to them.

I really appreciate the contributors of this, Catman, and all you other Gentlemen.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Okay, guys I want to thank the guys who have already purchased the Tie Rod Assemblies from me. I have a new development, actually a complete surprise as well. I finally received the rest of the order of Tie Rod Sleeves, and.......they are black. They used a different type of anti-rust coat finish. It's the exact same rod sleeve but, tell me what you think? I think it definitely makes it look aftermarket. The company didn't tell me they wouldn't look identical to the ones they already sent, but the blacked out looks kind of nice right?

Before I forget I only have 9 sets left of the bulk order the guys on Maserati life have been ordering a lot so please PM me if you're interested.

 

[Billy Kan]

Is that also fit for 04 cambiocorsa

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Is that also fit for 04 cambiocorsa

Yes it does, it will fit the Coupe, Spyder, (3200, and 4200 models) and the GranSport, they all use the exact same tie rod set up in the back of the vehicle.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Heim/Rose joints on Ferrari

Hey guys,
I was having a decent conversation with a Ferrari tech recently about this solution here with the tie rod assemblies. In a digression in our dialog, I mentioned that I wouldn't be surprised if the mother company used this same type of set up on the Prancing Horse. This is more because I don't own a Ferrari yet, and really didn't know for sure. Ironically, he mentioned the Ferrari 360, so I started researching the issue. Here check these links out, one of the links shows the Ferrari 360's front tie rod end being discussed and taken apart, the other links are the Ferrari rear being discussed and a few Ferrari models listed as using the Rose/Heim joint. So the model of 360 in the first photo shows the front outer tie rod end being a Rose/Heim joint. The other photos also show Rose/Heim joints in the back end. The bottom link shows other Ferrari models and diagrams using Rose/Heim joints. I was trying to get the manufacturer's information on them for F cars. I would like to do a dynamic load force comparison. I can see they are self maintenance Rose/Heim joints. But I want to know if they are using pressed in lubricating linings or whether they are like the ones I got for the tie rod assembly kits and are injected linings using Teflon/Kevlar. I can tell they are high performance joints but I cannot tell the make up under the boots. Does anyone have the information on these? Obviously this is a Maserati chat site but a few of you gentlemen have owned them or have information on them. It's possible Ferrari uses the injected lubricated linings because the technology surfaced in 1995 but still I would like to see. :
Ferrari 360 | Aldous Voice | Page 4

(it's 21 on the diagram)
Ferrari 360 Modena Parts : Table 52 - REAR SUSPENSION - WISHBONES

(blow the photo up and look at the list of Ferraris, additionally, no need to envy the Ferrari guys Heim joint/tie rod end at this price. It cost just as much as our control arms!)
http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=261927



Also I wonder is Deno, and Phil still senior members on the forum? I was reading one of the post they were involved with here about the Rose Joints, and wanted to ask a question about the ends they used, I was actually kind of concerned about the ones they chose to use? There is a few Rose joints you can use and not all of them are the same.

 

[BennyD]

I've just ordered a set for mine. I will report on how it all goes; from the ordering at the start, to the smile when it's all fitted and road tested.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Hey Ben,
I definitely appreciate it, I almost forgot to post this video I did about a month ago when I put mine in. Basically what this video is geared toward is Diyers. If you have a buddy with a lift, that's great, but I wanted to do a video that showed you didn't need anything fancy. I could of lifted it, and used a breaker bar to loosen the tie rod jam nuts. Instead as you'll see in the video you can actually use the weight of the car to loosen the jam nuts, just of course be careful. So how basic was it, I chose to do it right in my drive way with no other tools than a jack, a jack stand and a couple of wrenches. You will see I speak about thread count and alignment. I am only doing this so that you can get it close enough to get your car to an alignment shop. The rear tie rods, are similar to the front. You should never take suspension parts out, replace them and think you can align by sight. As a matter of fact I posted photos of how far my rear was out of alignment in this thread and I did the best I could so I could just drive it over. Here is the video of how to remove and replace your tie rods:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe6rjBJGgCg

 

[BennyD]

Thanks Craig, i'll have a watch before I put them on. Thankyou for all the effort you have put into this, it is much appreciated.

 

[philw696]

Hey guys,
I was having a decent conversation with a Ferrari tech recently about this solution here with the tie rod assemblies. In a digression in our dialog, I mentioned that I wouldn't be surprised if the mother company used this same type of set up on the Prancing Horse. This is more because I don't own a Ferrari yet, and really didn't know for sure. Ironically, he mentioned the Ferrari 360, so I started researching the issue. Here check these links out, one of the links shows the Ferrari 360's front tie rod end being discussed and taken apart, the other links are the Ferrari rear being discussed and a few Ferrari models listed as using the Rose/Heim joint. So the model of 360 in the first photo shows the front outer tie rod end being a Rose/Heim joint. The other photos also show Rose/Heim joints in the back end. The bottom link shows other Ferrari models and diagrams using Rose/Heim joints. I was trying to get the manufacturer's information on them for F cars. I would like to do a dynamic load force comparison. I can see they are self maintenance Rose/Heim joints. But I want to know if they are using pressed in lubricating linings or whether they are like the ones I got for the tie rod assembly kits and are injected linings using Teflon/Kevlar. I can tell they are high performance joints but I cannot tell the make up under the boots. Does anyone have the information on these? Obviously this is a Maserati chat site but a few of you gentlemen have owned them or have information on them. It's possible Ferrari uses the injected lubricated linings because the technology surfaced in 1995 but still I would like to see. :
Ferrari 360 | Aldous Voice | Page 4

(it's 21 on the diagram)
Ferrari 360 Modena Parts : Table 52 - REAR SUSPENSION - WISHBONES

(blow the photo up and look at the list of Ferraris, additionally, no need to envy the Ferrari guys Heim joint/tie rod end at this price. It cost just as much as our control arms!)
http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=261927



Also I wonder is Deno, and Phil still senior members on the forum? I was reading one of the post they were involved with here about the Rose Joints, and wanted to ask a question about the ends they used, I was actually kind of concerned about the ones they chose to use? There is a few Rose joints you can use and not all of them are the same.

Hi Craig I'm still here and have modified rear tie rods on my 4200. Will have to look through my paperwork. My rose joints came from Germany through a UK motor sport company. I drivey car hard and have had her on track too with no issues. I'm lucky to have a 360 Modena not looked too close at her yet as I'm still enjoying driving her. Phil.

 

[Klive]

These are the ones I have G1XSW14MSD12 from FLURO-Gelenklager GMBH. I would be interested in your comments.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Hi Craig I'm still here and have modified rear tie rods on my 4200. Will have to look through my paperwork. My rose joints came from Germany through a UK motor sport company. I drivey car hard and have had her on track too with no issues. I'm lucky to have a 360 Modena not looked too close at her yet as I'm still enjoying driving her. Phil.

Hey thanks Phil......I appreciate you commenting back.....I saw the thread you started....LOL I recognized those modified tie rod assemblies right away!!

I saw the shells of those first Rose joints you replaced. I don't know if you knew it but they looked to me as the Rose joints with the ball pressed in liner, the liner usually is Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE), best known brand is Teflon. Additionally, they have a brass looking ring around the ball where they press the ball in. They are a durable Rose Joint, but if you get a chance or if they fail again try an Ultra Strength or Super Performance Rose joint. The technology came out in 1995, essentially what they do is inject the liner around the ball. The injected material is PTFE/Kevlar mixed. It blocks the dirt, water, and debris in away the others cannot because of the way it's injected. Of course this is all a suggestion. These Rose joints are more expensive but definitely worth it. I was kind of concerned about the joints Deno was using as well. He mentioned the grease nipple and originally I was going to attempt it, but there's just no comparison. When I received an economy grade joint just to see if it would work, the ball inside the joint itself already had play in it. The grease-able Rose joints are economy grade Rose joints, and though they will work, especially if you have one with a decent dynamic load I wouldn't suggest it. The ones originally on your car looked like performance grade Rose joints, at least from the shell, I didn't see any grease nipple on them. The ones I used on my car are the same high performance grade pressed in ball, dynamic load rated at 11,000 lbs. They didn't tell me they had the ones I included in these kits until after I installed it and had it aligned. I'm sure you noticed they are pretty quiet as well. They aren't like the old race joints that sounded like a rattling tin can!

Either way, I just wanted to check up on how yours were to make sure you didn't replace them with economy grade joints. I was just discussing this with a Ferrari Tech the other day because I wanted to do a comparison on the joints I am using in these kits, and what Ferrari is using on the front and back of some of their cars. There's a few companies out there selling low quality joints. If you purchased them from a Race shop or a Company that specializes in Racing links and accessories, I seriously doubt they would put their reputation on the line to sale you a low quality Rose joint. LOL if your tracking the car, you definitely would have already known by now.

It's good to know that chopping the end of the tie rod assembly and having it machined would work. I cannot speak Dutch and google translate isn't even close to being perfect for holding a dialog so I couldn't ask the guy who did it in the Dutch forum. I was concerned with the metallurgy and I didn't want to stick it under the car. I settled on the high performance sleeve you saw above. Either way, please don't dig through all your records just for me if you don't need to. I mean if you would like to share the part # I can tell you exactly what you are using under the car.

Either way, again thank you for commenting.....

 

[CraigWaterman11]

These are the ones I have G1XSW14MSD12 from FLURO-Gelenklager GMBH. I would be interested in your comments.

Hey Klive,
GIXSW.....
I linked it to take you right to their website so you could see the info. From what I can tell it's the heaviest duty Rose joint they sell there in this line. It has a self-maintenance pressed in PTFE liner. It has a dynamic load rating of 32 KN or 7,193 lbs, which is about 3,000 lbs over what the stock spherical plain bearing has. Fluro is a good company, and please don't think that because I am mentioning these kits having 15,300 lbs of dynamic load Force Rose joints that you cannot get by with less.
Honestly, that's about 4 Maserati Spyders swinging from each other. I wanted to go over board on purpose, some might call it extreme, but don't feel your Rose joint will fail or anything because of it. Here's the trick to the extra precise track joints.....make sure your dust boots don't have holes in them.... It's just like any other ball and socket joint,.... with water, dirt and debris they become imprecise junk.

If at some point in the distant future you decide to change yours out, try a Rose joint that doesn't have a race with a pressed in liner. Try a race that's injection molded with Kevlar and reinforced with PTFE. Essentially the body is machined with a groove going all the way around the interior. The ball is then inserted into the slot and the PTFE (Better known as Teflon), Kevlar material is injected. The Race won't pound out like traditional pressed PTFE Rose joints. Seals the dirt/water/debris out better. They usually have more dynamic load than the traditional pressed in PTFE ones.

Again, don't worry about them being pressed in, I have them on my car as well. I have a higher dynamic load rating at 11,000 lbs but, I think it's for two reasons, one, it's just slightly better of a rose end. Only just slightly, ...two ( the biggest factor of the two), the tie rod sleeves I am using are 14mm, as well as the Rose joints, not 12mm like the ones on your car. When the guys were machining the OEM tie rod assemblies they were machining them at 12mm because that's the size of the ball joint stud bolt. What I decided to do is come at it the other way, and use the actual size of the rod threaded into the control arm (14mm) and reduce it down to achieve a higher dynamic load force. I used a one ton press to press in a reducer into the Rose joint instead of using a high-hat reducer that could possibly protrude out through the boot and leave a place for water to get in. Thus, the bigger size, the more dynamic load force.

Phil did state above he's using this set-up on the track and it's working perfectly. I'm not sure if he's using Fluro, but again lets put this in perspective. The OEM tie rod end only has about 4000 lbs of dynamic load force. Why is this so important? Essentially because if that's what the OEM rating is it surely isn't maxing that out, and that has been considered a "safe" dynamic load force rated Spherical plain bearing for the car. When you go above that you are in my opinion just adding more durability to it.
I'm looking for an analogy to explain it here,......maybe a poor one but lets try this. Say a guy can lift a max weight of 200 lbs in bench press, 100 lbs is quite easy for him to do so, correct? If you put someone in place that can bench press instead 400 lbs, how much EASIER is it for him to press the 100 lbs than the other guy? They both can handle the 100 lb load but the guy lifting a max bench of 400 lbs can handle it with much more grace and for much longer loaded periods than the 200 lb max bench gentleman. That's all we are essentially doing here. We want a joint that's more durable, that can handle the load with such grace it's like it's not even being used. LOL......that's why I stuck a Gorilla in the tie rod assemblies ( if I remember correctly a Silver Back Gorilla can bench upwards of 1000 lbs)!
Please don't ask how I came up with this analogy from all that I could of used in the world, I just couldn't think of another when I wrote.

I hope I helped you in this. In sum, you're fine brother with the joint you are using. It's in my opinion still better than stock.

 

[alfatwo]

Looks like a good mod Graig,but unfortunately over here road cars and there componants have to be homologated by the EU,fitting non standard rear suspension parts as you recomend is a definate no no as far as insurance is concerned!


Dave

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Looks like a good mod Graig,but unfortunately over here road cars have to be homologated by the EU,fitting non standard rear suspension componants as you recomend is a definate no no as far as the insurance is concerned

Dave

Dave, if I understand the definition correctly of homologate (to recognize (a particular type of car or car component) as a production model or component rather than a prototype, as in making it eligible for a motor race), I would say it fits the proper criterion.

I did not design the Heim/Rose joint, nor the tie rod sleeve. Both are used in vehicles all over the world. They are by far non-standard, which is why I could never get a patent for putting this assembly together, even a utility patent wouldn't pass muster. I posted links to the Ferrari using the exact same set up in the 360 and other models. Additionally, if what you are saying is correct wouldn't that mean you could not put aftermarket parts on your car at all including other rims because that's not what was originally designed for that particular car? Race cars, Indy cars, Drag cars, Street/Strip cars use these parts, nothing I'm doing is new, or non-standard, though I really wish I was a genius like that. Moreover, I guess you wouldn't be able to cut off the end of your tie rod assembly at all to retrofit a Rose joint in place of the Plain Spherical bearing then though there seems to be plenty of data available showing the Rose joint is a safer higher dynamic load rated joint. Either way, please provide me with more information, I am definitely ignorant of the EUs customs.

 

[alfatwo]

Car insurance criteria here in the UK is very strict,you have to disclose any modifications from standard however small or they don't pay out!
Sure, non standard wheels,tyres,brakes etc are ok to fit because all of these separate parts for sale in Europe are E marked, ie homologated to EU spec

Dave

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Dave, the Rose joint and tie rod sleeve meet and/or exceed OEM standards for the car.....any of the cars it's applicable to ie. GranSport; 4200; 3200 either the coupe or Spyder. I am sure this would include EU spec to. This is especially true since I could prove the Rose joints are made there and the tie rod sleeves can be purchased there as well.

 

[Klive]

Craig,
Thanks for your comments. Just after I bought my car both bearings needed replacing. As I didn't have time (patience) to take it down the redesign route I paid a fortune to replace them with Maserati parts.
Since then I set about modifying the old ones to ensure I didn't get caught again. You can read my story here, http://www.sportsmaserati.co.uk/showthread.php/918-Rear-Track-Rod-Arms?highlight=ends
40000 miles on now and I've still not needed them, so I expect when they are fitted they'll last for the life of the car.
Regards

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Craig,
Thanks for your comments. Just after I bought my car both bearings needed replacing. As I didn't have time (patience) to take it down the redesign route I paid a fortune to replace them with Maserati parts.
Since then I set about modifying the old ones to ensure I didn't get caught again. You can read my story here, http://www.sportsmaserati.co.uk/showthread.php/918-Rear-Track-Rod-Arms?highlight=ends
40000 miles on now and I've still not needed them, so I expect when they are fitted they'll last for the life of the car.
Regards

Klive, this is really great news! You know I really wanted to tell people the same thing. I really wish that I could guarantee these for that many miles or life, and I definitely set out to completely exceed anything they put on these cars as far as durability. The only reason I could not do that, though I absolutely believe people can get just as many miles and more out of this, is because should a mechanic or someone get under the car and not pay attention and rip the boot, alternatively or the boot is compromised, again the joint like any ball and socket will eventually fail. This is what Grinzzz was asking earlier in this thread, wondering about the wear and tear, how long it would last etc. I believe you also saw Phil's post, he had the shell of the Rose joint he was replacing. I'm pretty sure that it was water, dirt and debris that originally got through his boot, and it wasn't that the joint failed on it's own. With the dynamic load forces we are using, it's not the road force pounding of the car itself that breaks these down, not even close, it's the boot compromise.

What I appreciate here from you is that you can back what you did to the car so people can see that you can have a tie rod assembly that will outlast anything they originally put on the car. I am glad you chimed in here. In the U.S. forum on Maserati life people know me a bit better from doing videos or diyer of gutting the pre-cats, primary cats on U.S. Spec cars, to doing a diyer heater hose re-route until people could replace their heater cores. I like to help the Maserati commmunity. I came over when I actually saw one of your senior members were over here that I met in the forum in the U.S. He's a pretty smart guy (don't tell him I said that, no need to have his head big!), subsequently I was asked to repost it here. But of course when you see someone with just a few posts you assume they are just trying to sell something or they don't know what they are talking about. So again thank you, my goal started as coming up with a solution that was better than OEM, and would outlast anything that they offered. I didn't want to chop up my OEM tie rod assemblies because I didn't think it was necessary, and like stated before I didn't know the metallurgy. Though you can get away with it, it wasn't designed from the beginning to have a threaded Rose joint. This is why I searched for a tie rod sleeve that was designed just for this type of application. Again thank you, and I did read your post before. You did a great job!

 

[Klive]

Craig,

Careful. I think we may be confused. Mine are not fitted yet. I'm still using the genuine Maserati replacement wishbones/tie rod assemblies. When and if these wear out again I have a set of modified ones that I've prepared that I'll fit.

It's good to see that everytime someone takes this "development" they go one step further to ensuring it's safe.

I also like your idea of the left hand thread. It should make adjustments a little easier.

Regards

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Craig,

Careful. I think we may be confused. Mine are not fitted yet. I'm still using the genuine Maserati replacement wishbones/tie rod assemblies. When and if these wear out again I have a set of modified ones that I've prepared that I'll fit.

It's good to see that everytime someone takes this "development" they go one step further to ensuring it's safe.

I also like your idea of the left hand thread. It should make adjustments a little easier.

Regards

LOL....sorry Klive I must of misunderstood why you were asking about the Fluro Rose Joint, and then understood what you wrote differently. Well, all I can say is I am very happy for you. Maybe cars in the UK are different than in the U.S. or maybe road conditions are. I replaced mine at 25,000 miles but they needed them much earlier than that.

So that you understand the history of my Mas. it was a one owner car before I purchased her. The guy was an older gentleman that owned a bunch of papermills in the southern U.S. He passed away and his widow couldn't drive the car. It was far from an abused car, and never had it seen a track. So it's not like this Mas. should of had bad tie rods in the rear of the car off of it's driving history. It came out of Florida from a place call Williams Island.

Now you mentioned that you replaced the entire control arm with the tie rod assemblies that were originally in your car correct? The part number for the Radial Spherical bearing they use is part number SKF GE 15 C (Please follow the links they are here for your convenience). I don't know how much you guys purchase them for in the UK but in the U.S. we get them at a little over $60 USD a piece..... the MSC link shows $48 a piece but with shipping it's $65-68 USD. MSC

I added the SKF link to show you the actual dynamic load of the maintenance free radial spherical bearing you have in the tie rod end for your Maserati, and just to make a small point for others. (Adam provided the SKF bearing part number for us on Maserati life, I want to make sure I give him credit for bringing that over to us). So the actual dynamic load of that bearing is 18 kN or (4050 lbs), if you notice at the top they say they are using PTFE fabric for a liner. I wanted to show this (though I thought I linked it earlier in the thread) so you didn't think I was just throwing numbers around when I spoke about the fluro end having 3,000 pounds over the OEM dynamic load rating.

For me, and this is only for me, my opinion was I didn't want an OEM replacement with the same junk that failed, and honestly as I showed in the video link they didn't fail completely. I do understand had you had another option available at the time I am sure you would have taken it. So please don't feel I am attacking that point. I definitely am not. I understand, and it's the same reason, the heart of the matter why these threads started in both forums for me.

So simple arithmetic $68 USD for the OEM bearing, and if I wasn't any good with a press how much would it cost me to press these out, and back in, just for one Maserati OEM tie rod? (I understand you had the entire assemblies replaced) What $25-30 USD a piece? Mechanic shops don't work for free, and so I am only estimating this from my end on what they would tell me. Let's say, $15 USD.......it's only an illustration anyway. So for $83 USD I can have my old tie rods back to their new status correct?

The alternative is, don't touch the OEM rod at all. (For me though you got 40,000 miles out of it, I did not. Actually I think someone on the forum mentioned they received much less mileage than I did.) I want the best thing I can find that was engineered for hard pounding racing conditions without breaking my wallet. I don't want to chop up my OEM tie rod because someone might come along and not understand the science or how far it's progressed in the area and want them back on. I began with the most integral part, a tie rod sleeve that would right hand thread into the control arm, left hand thread the Heim/Rose joint, and have enough dynamic load capacity to be fine. Well you already understand the science about the Heim/Rose joint I used so that's, that.
I guess the only thing left was the price for each one....$100 USD. That's it....... not only did I put something on the car that's 4 times the dynamic load force as the OEM tie rod assembly I did it at the same price people are paying just to press in a new OEM bearing. I didn't chop up anything. I used all parts that were specifically engineered to do what I am doing with them. Now that I have a sleeve I can replace Heim/Rose joints at a fraction of the cost of the bearing.

I know that you mentioned "development", but honestly like I was telling Dave above, none of us forum members, whether Dutch, UK or myself can claim credit for any of this regardless of all our wonderful ideas. Since they have been doing this in cars for Decades although we came up with the solution to put it in place on the rear of the Maserati. We merely stood on the shoulders of people who've done it in other cars and it worked perfectly, for instance like Ferrari, the links I posted earlier. I'm not one to take credit for merely copying the men I saw do it before me whether in racing, or street/strip applications.

BTW, you mentioned you had 40,000 miles on these, but I read your post, and you didn't mention, at least I didn't see it in the link you posted, how many miles you originally have on the ones you replaced? I am very interested...