Goodbye

Blimey what a storm in a tea cup. I've been on here for many years, been on lots of events/meets and met lots of great also interesting people.

At no point have I ever felt there was any issues of any type here that are any different to any other situation in life every day.

I do get a bit irked by this constant modern attitude of creating issues out of nothing when none exists that I can see. The very things people are saying and doing IMHO are creating divides that weren't even there in the first place.

I've said before I don't see colour....I see people. Colour is a complete irrelevance to me. If you don't like what someone is saying don't listen if your offended. Also nothing wrong with having a decent conversation about sometging with someone to discuss differences or different points of view. The amount of stuff I see about privilege or or this or that gets on my wick a bit. Just get up off your backsides and work. It is all I have done in spades for 30 years.

I have met Benny several times and have read many of his posts on here. He has an abrasive character that I have no issue with at all. I certainly don't think he is racist at all and have seen no evidence for this at all. So I have to defend Benny as I feel if anything he is getting bullied more than anyone else but his character invites it. Is it right he should be bullied? Not really.

Some people need to toughen up a bit if we are going to get through a global pandemic with a likely pending economic fallout following the likes none of us have ever seen in our lifetime. Our previous generations sacrificed their lives for our freedoms and fought in world wars and people are getting narky about silly little things.

People have a right to their opinion. Get over it. You don't have to agree or listen but others might which is their choice. Just ignore, block or don't listen to the threads you don't want to. There is a choice and nobody is forcing anyone to read or respond to anything.

We are turning into a world where some are allowed to do and/or say as they want without challenge. However others seem afraid to do the same without fear of persecution or being called a bully or a racist. This is not free speech or allowing people to have an opinion.

I am not educated, elecuant or a well travelled or well read person. Just a simple honest hard-working law abiding citizen. I don't feel I'm advantaged or disadvantaged and if I was it would just make me want to try harder. Only advantaged as I have a lovely family, food on the table, a roof over our heads and clothes on our backs. Anything else is a luxury and not essential. People seem to lose sight of these simple things these days.

If I have one issue and that is not just on here but also everywhere in life is that some are very judgmental and self righteous often possibly too quickly without thinking others are allowed their own thoughts and opinions.

BennyD said:

It wasn’t a ‘casual’ story about someone of Caribbean extraction, it was a personal story about an individual who played the race card to his advantage, and it was within the context of a discussion that became about race.

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@Corranga has answered this more effectively than I could.

BennyD said:

If you are (too) easily offended then so be it, but how in h3ll would you know how a black person would feel on here? You might think you are empathetic to the feelings of the rest of society but trust me, you aren’t.

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Firstly, I did not claim to 'know'; I very cautiously expressed my impression, saying, "I can see how a black person on this forum might...". But, actually I do know to some extent, because people have told me. I'm happy to rely on my limited experience and tentative conclusions. Rather than your exhortation to 'trust me'.

BennyD said:

Sure, I use a lot of bad language, I always have done but that is my choice. If it offends you, block me and move on I can assure you I won’t lose any sleep over it.

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I'm not at all offended by 'bad language' as in swearing. Nor am I offended by vivid or vehement expression. I have even defended Boris Johnson's use of the word 'piccaninnies' in the context he used. But I am offended, irritated, depressed, disappointed and aggravated by aggressive bluster, and by people expressing themselves with a bullying, hectoring certainty, that they claim to be 'personality', 'habit', 'honesty' or 'just telling the truth'.

BennyD said:

FWIW, you also seem very confident in your rightness,

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No, it is almost my defining characteristic that I am not confident in my rightness! Many of my posts tend to be infuriatingly peppered with doubts and qualifications like: sometimes, seems to me, might feel, should probably, in my opinion. This is not sophistry; I am genuinely being tentative in expressing myself and my intent is to invite thoughtfulness, introspection and discussion.

BennyD said:

even though you are backing someone who showed their true colours in a post about his Greek friend. You will probably regard this repost as bullying but it isn’t, it’s just someone with a different opinion to yourself who is trying to express it in the clearest terms possible.

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It is not about backing anyone, it’s just someone with a different opinion to yourself who is trying to express it in the clearest terms possible.

Well said Mr Rockits. If I could give you 2 likes or a ‘bloody good, well done Sir’ I would.

MarkMas said:

@Corranga has answered this more effectively than I could.



Firstly, I did not claim to 'know'; I very cautiously expressed my impression, saying, "I can see how a black person on this forum might...". But, actually I do know to some extent, because people have told me. I'm happy to rely on my limited experience and tentative conclusions. Rather than your exhortation to 'trust me'.



I'm not at all offended by 'bad language' as in swearing. Nor am I offended by vivid or vehement expression. I have even defended Boris Johnson's use of the word 'piccaninnies' in the context he used. But I am offended, irritated, depressed, disappointed and aggravated by aggressive bluster, and by people expressing themselves with a bullying, hectoring certainty, that they claim to be 'personality', 'habit', 'honesty' or 'just telling the truth'.



No, it is almost my defining characteristic that I am not confident in my rightness! Many of my posts tend to be infuriatingly peppered with doubts and qualifications like: sometimes, seems to me, might feel, should probably, in my opinion. This is not sophistry; I am genuinely being tentative in expressing myself and my intent is to invite thoughtfulness, introspection and discussion.



It is not about backing anyone, it’s just someone with a different opinion to yourself who is trying to express it in the clearest terms possible.

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Let’s just agree to disagree because I really can’t be bothered to Wade through all that verbiage just to reinvent the wheel. If you think I’m racist, abusive or offensive then block me and move on if not, go with the flow.

outrun said:

Just wait till @Wattie wakes up in Gold Coast....

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I’ve been awake for a while but have just been “ignoring” this.
Beside, it’s a bit rich for some to claim they’ve got people on ignore whilst actively liking each and every post any poster posts against said individual.
I’ll go back to ignoring this thread now and hope some will fully ignore this post too.

Wow...

We need some one to sort this out where is Birdcage?

W.T.F? Don’t invite him in or this could get really messy!

[QUOTE

Wattie said:

I’ve been awake for a while but have just been “ignoring” this.
Beside, it’s a bit rich for some to claim they’ve got people on ignore whilst actively liking each and every post any poster posts against said individual.
I’ll go back to ignoring this thread now and hope some will fully ignore this post too.

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Outrun, I can see your post being quoted but nothing else, did you press the wrong button or something mate?

Dan! said:

[QUOTE


Outrun, I can see your post being quoted but nothing else, did you press the wrong button or something mate?

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You’re on block Daniel. You’re chat about weight loss upset me.

Wattie said:

I’ve been awake for a while but have just been “ignoring” this.
Beside, it’s a bit rich for some to claim they’ve got people on ignore whilst actively liking each and every post any poster posts against said individual.
I’ll go back to ignoring this thread now and hope some will fully ignore this post too.

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Morning Gold Coast, hope you’re all well. And given it’s winter in Scotland, I hope the weather there is disappointing cold and miserable,

Dan! said:

You've just posted the exact same thing as "they" do, just more eloquently.
You write beautifully, but you're still just voicing your opinion, to which some will be offended or feel singled out.

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Thank you! blush.

Dan! said:

Can that be summarised further? I'm still struggling. Perhaps 5 words or less?

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Five words, eh? Let's try....

I'm Right! vs Maybe not?

Or a longer version:

Many of the posts I dislike tend to be statements of 'absolute truth'. Let's go with, as an example, "Biden is a Socialist", and are often backed up with spurious confirmation, such as "FACT!" or "Trust me" or "I was told this by God". Then I tend to say (ever so eloquently) something like, "Um, are you sure about that? Because I don't really feel that way, and also here is a link to Biden's policies, and here is a link to a dictionary." And the reply tends to be along the lines of "You know nothing, and I'm an expert!" and/or "I'm offended by your attack on me" and/or "I'm just voicing my opinion, it doesn't have to be true".

So it goes:
Person A: 'voicing an opinion as if it is fact'
Person B: 'making a tentative challenge to that opinion'
Person A: 'shouty abuse'
Or at least that is how it seems to me!

That's why I gave up on the COVID thread.

MarkMas said:

...
So it goes:
Person A: 'voicing an opinion as if it is fact'
Person B: 'making a tentative challenge to that opinion'
Person A: 'shouty abuse'
Or at least that is how it seems to me!

That's why I gave up on the COVID thread.

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Oh, and the final stage is:
Person A: Let’s just agree to disagree because I really can’t be bothered ...

I've got 5 words

Let's try to get along

MarkMas said:

Oh, and the final stage is:
Person A: Let’s just agree to disagree because I really can’t be bothered ...

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Ok then;

1) How has he explained it? I’ve said it was a personal anecdote about 1 person, not a race of people.

2) Black PEOPLE have told you they feel uncomfortable on this forum? Who exactly? Names/Usernames please.

3) I don’t claim to have 'personality', 'habit', 'honesty' or 'just telling the truth'. If other people claim that about me, that’s not MY problem.

4) To say that you invite thoughtfulness, introspection and discussion is a little bit disingenuous; you come across as hectoring and a little aggressive, hence the reason I had to reply to your verbose musings.

5) If you really are interested in calling out racism, why haven’t you ‘had a go’ at Oneball and his Greek mate anecdote? Focussing your aim at me in spite of such blatant racism could constitute bullying or is that the thoughtful, introspective discussion you want to foster?

6) I’ve had nastier people than you trying to give me a hard time so crack on if you think it will make a difference. A word of advice, failing to call Oneball out as a racist will show you up for what you really are.

Corranga said:

You’re being racist again. The term ‘mixed origins’ is racist, things can be mixed, people can’t.
There is a difference between being a racist and being racist, perhaps you are the latter. Someone who is inadvertently saying racist things in the belief that is ok and not racist. You become a racist when you choose to ignore those telling you that you are being racist, and choose not to change your rhetoric.

Also, despite what you’re saying here, you did single out a Caribbean/English person in a comparison, and specifically mentioned their race when comparing to another Black person, that is racist. You are saying you were talking of someone playing the race card. If you weren’t doing this then why single out that 1 person over there surely thousands of other people you’ve met in your life, it makes no sense.


On an unrelated note, I’d like to say I’m replying to you because you are engaging. I initially quoted you because it was the last post in the thread and I had comment on it, I’m not specifically singling you out.

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I’m not a racist myself, but I must admit, reading your first sentence, it seems pretty easy these days to fall foul of being inadvertently labelled a racist these days. The terms, or exact wording ‘allowed‘, at any particular time, so to not offend someone, seem to change with alarming regularity these days, and even vary from country to country.
Unless you spend all your time keeping up with what words are allowed it’s best just avoiding all internet activity relating to race, politics, brexit etc., best just sticking to cars, after all, this is a car forum!

Anyway, what do I know, I’m over 50 and have a bit of roseaca, so I’m just a ‘gammon’. Is that right?

rockits said:

At no point have I ever felt there was any issues of any type here that are any different to any other situation in life every day.

I do get a bit irked by this constant modern attitude of creating issues out of nothing when none exists that I can see. The very things people are saying and doing IMHO are creating divides that weren't even there in the first place.

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Creating issues out of the constant oppression of certain races, sexes, sexualities isn't creating issues out of nothing.

rockits said:

The amount of stuff I see about privilege or or this or that gets on my wick a bit. Just get up off your backsides and work. It is all I have done in spades for 30 years.

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Privilege has nothing to do with how hard you work, re-read my post.
I also grew up with nothing and worked hard for what I have I'm still privileged. I'm white, I'm male, I'm British.
I got a free education while others have no home.
I can walk down the street without fear of being raped due to the skirt I chose to wear as I'm male.
I can drive my car late at night without fear of being pulled over as I'm white.
I can get payed more in most jobs mas I'm not a woman.
I can live a life free of racism as I'm white.

It's not about being persecuted for being privileged, it's simply about realising that you are where you are, in part because of who you are, and that others in your exact situations would be worse off.

rockits said:

I certainly don't think he is racist at all and have seen no evidence for this at all.

So I have to defend Benny as I feel if anything he is getting bullied more than anyone else but his character invites it. Is it right he should be bullied? Not really.

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I've literally just posted 2 examples. Let's put it another way. There is a word that begins with N. It's no longer used in society as it's deemed a racial slur, perhaps the worst of al racial slurs. It's racist because it's offensive to those to whom it was used against. It was posted on signs telling them they weren't welcome, shouted at them as they were arrested for crimes they didn't commit, used as a reason to deny them the right to vote, or to not get a job, or as they were denied entry to a cafe. It's wrong. We all know it's wrong. We don't use that word any more. "Mixed race" is an offensive term used to diminish people, to make them seem less than other people. It's offensive, it's a slur, it shouldn't be used.
I'm not bullying anyone, I'm educating. I'm stating facts. Facts about how people feel, and how some statements are not acceptable as they single out people based on their race, or are slurs. I'm helping him.
Not being "woke" isn't an excuse. It's ignorance, and it's lazy. I've literally stated what he needs to do, yet he has chosen to ignore me, and re-us the term. Ignorance is not an excuse.

rockits said:

Some people need to toughen up a bit if we are going to get through a global pandemic with a likely pending economic fallout following the likes none of us have ever seen in our lifetime. Our previous generations sacrificed their lives for our freedoms and fought in world wars and people are getting narky about silly little things.

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This is ********. Do I strike you as someone who has to 'toughen up' simply because I feel we have a responsibility to be nice to others on this planet?
I'm the one posting on a forum where most people don't agree with the facts I'm stating.
What does the previous generation have to do with it? - actually, I'm 38, so technically a millennial (just) so it's the generation before the previous generation for me. The previous generation squandered more of what the war generation fought for than my generation have. They had the world handed to them on a plate.

rockits said:

People have a right to their opinion. Get over it. You don't have to agree or listen but others might which is their choice. Just ignore, block or don't listen to the threads you don't want to. There is a choice and nobody is forcing anyone to read or respond to anything.

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This is straight up victim blaming. You don't like the racial abuse? Just turn it off. No. The offense shouldn't be there in the first place. People shouldn't have to turn off the things they don't like We're supposed to be a civilised community yet I can't even tell someone they are saying something widely regarded as a racial slur without comments suggesting I need to toughen up.

rockits said:

If I have one issue and that is not just on here but also everywhere in life is that some are very judgmental and self righteous often possibly too quickly without thinking others are allowed their own thoughts and opinions.

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People are absolutely allowed to have their own thoughts and opinions, but if they are willing to stand by those thoughts and opinions, then they are responsible for them also.
People are responsible for what they say, but the great thing is, they can change and say other things. Despite the press and twitter thinking otherwise, no one is branded a racist, people can make mistakes and change their minds. Doubling down on racial slurs however makes you a racist (until you change), plain and simple.

gb-gta said:

I’m not a racist myself, but I must admit, reading your first sentence, it seems pretty easy these days to fall foul of being inadvertently labelled a racist these days. The terms, or exact wording ‘allowed‘, at any particular time, so to not offend someone, seem to change with alarming regularity these days, and even vary from country to country.
Unless you spend all your time keeping up with what words are allowed it’s best just avoiding all internet activity relating to race, politics, brexit etc., best just sticking to cars, after all, this is a car forum!

Anyway, what do I know, I’m over 50 and have a bit of roseaca, so I’m just a ‘gammon’. Is that right?

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The problem is, being called out as a racist is seen as some horrific insult, but if you are using racial terms or singling out people due to their race, you re being racist.
For absolute clarity, this is the definition of racist:
"prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized"

The great news is, you can change. All you have to do is think about what you are saying. Am I being prejudiced against people due to their racial group?
If you are in doubt, just don't talk about race, it's that simple.

If you get a term wrong and someone corrects you, apologise, and try not to use it again. I'm not persecuting anyone for using the wrong term, nor am I permanently branding someone, I'm simply pointing out what shouldn't be said. We all have a responsibility to make this world a nice and friendly place, I don't think it's much to ask.
I will persecute people for choosing to ignore however as they think that they can continue to use these racial slurs, which indicates to me that they think they are somehow better then the oppressed race, which indicates to me that they are being prejudiced against people based on their race, which is, as posted above, exactly the definition of racism.





Anyway, at this point, I've tried to do my bit and educate folk a little, and I'm pulling out of this one. I don't feel like I've won anything (in fact it seem clear I haven't) but my words are falling on deaf ears so I'll go spend my time elsewhere.

If you desperately want to continue this conversation with me, drop me a pm, and I'll reply eventually.

It seems I picked the wrong night to visit the form for the first time in a few weeks!

Corranga said:

Creating issues out of the constant oppression of certain races, sexes, sexualities isn't creating issues out of nothing.



Privilege has nothing to do with how hard you work, re-read my post.
I also grew up with nothing and worked hard for what I have I'm still privileged. I'm white, I'm male, I'm British.
I got a free education while others have no home.
I can walk down the street without fear of being raped due to the skirt I chose to wear as I'm male.
I can drive my car late at night without fear of being pulled over as I'm white.
I can get payed more in most jobs mas I'm not a woman.
I can live a life free of racism as I'm white.

It's not about being persecuted for being privileged, it's simply about realising that you are where you are, in part because of who you are, and that others in your exact situations would be worse off.



I've literally just posted 2 examples. Let's put it another way. There is a word that begins with N. It's no longer used in society as it's deemed a racial slur, perhaps the worst of al racial slurs. It's racist because it's offensive to those to whom it was used against. It was posted on signs telling them they weren't welcome, shouted at them as they were arrested for crimes they didn't commit, used as a reason to deny them the right to vote, or to not get a job, or as they were denied entry to a cafe. It's wrong. We all know it's wrong. We don't use that word any more. "Mixed race" is an offensive term used to diminish people, to make them seem less than other people. It's offensive, it's a slur, it shouldn't be used.
I'm not bullying anyone, I'm educating. I'm stating facts. Facts about how people feel, and how some statements are not acceptable as they single out people based on their race, or are slurs. I'm helping him.
Not being "woke" isn't an excuse. It's ignorance, and it's lazy. I've literally stated what he needs to do, yet he has chosen to ignore me, and re-us the term. Ignorance is not an excuse.



This is ****. Do I strike you as someone who has to 'toughen up' simply because I feel we have a responsibility to be nice to others on this planet?
I'm the one posting on a forum where most people don't agree with the facts I'm stating.
What does the previous generation have to do with it? - actually, I'm 38, so technically a millennial (just) so it's the generation before the previous generation for me. The previous generation squandered more of what the war generation fought for than my generation have. They had the world handed to them on a plate.



This is straight up victim blaming. You don't like the racial abuse? Just turn it off. No. The offense shouldn't be there in the first place. People shouldn't have to turn off the things they don't like We're supposed to be a civilised community yet I can't even tell someone they are saying something widely regarded as a racial slur without comments suggesting I need to toughen up.



People are absolutely allowed to have their own thoughts and opinions, but if they are willing to stand by those thoughts and opinions, then they are responsible for them also.
People are responsible for what they say, but the great thing is, they can change and say other things. Despite the press and twitter thinking otherwise, no one is branded a racist, people can make mistakes and change their minds. Doubling down on racial slurs however makes you a racist (until you change), plain and simple.

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I have no idea what you are going about. Most I what I have just read in your post leaves me none the wiser. You have come in fuelled a fire that was just petering out nicely. Well done you.

You are creating or making issues you feel are there. There is no fact to this merely your opinion. Which you are more than entitled to. It is not wrong or right just your opinion which is fine. I have zero issues with you or your opinion why would I?

By the same token my opinion is neither right nor wrong again just my opinion. I would respectfully ask you accept my opinion and politely disagree with it. No problem. Move on.

We have different opinions and ideas. There is no issue in that so please stop making them.

gb-gta said:

Anyway, what do I know, I’m over 50 and have a bit of roseaca, so I’m just a ‘gammon’. Is that right?

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And a boomer , let's not forget that

I'm praying for the ignore thread button fairy to have a busy night

I expect the block/ignore button will be knackered and will need a very good night's sleep