Defacing Statues

rossyl

rossyl

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rockits said:
It is a bit different to topple Gaddafi's statue when he fell. This is not quite the same is it?

I haven't a strong opinion either way. However I don't think behaviour like this at a time of lockdown when we have a pretty important issue to focus on isn't very intelligent or socially supportable.
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But...in reference to your two points.

What if you are of Kenyan heritage, and your grandfather/family member was tortured in a Churchill camp? Is it then ok, similar to those who suffered under Gaddafi, to pull down the statue.

As for the actions, purely in relation to lockdown. Is 5,000 people convening in London, better or worse than 5,000 people convening on Brighton beach?
 
rockits

rockits

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rossyl said:
But...in reference to your two points.

What if you are of Kenyan heritage, and your grandfather/family member was tortured in a Churchill camp? Is it then ok, similar to those who suffered under Gaddafi, to pull down the statue.

As for the actions, purely in relation to lockdown. Is 5,000 people convening in London, better or worse than 5,000 people convening on Brighton beach?
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I can't say as I'm not of Kenyan heritage but I think if I was of Kenyan heritage I would want any symbol to remind me of that time to remain and exist. History is full of symbols for us to remember and not forget. Should we get rid of all symbols everywhere then so there will be no issues?

I would have thought 5,000 people convening in London is exactly the same as 5,000 people convening anywhere Brighton beach or otherwise. We know mass gatherings will be a problem so they need to be avoided. It is pretty irresponsible and selfish behaviour. Some people are not far off commiting involuntary manslaughter as someone somewhere could indirectly die from these very actions.
 
linescanner

linescanner

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An awful lot of the people we look at in history have skeletons. We would have a world devoid of anything if we allow this stupidity to continue. What would happen if someone pointed out Mandela and some of the things the ANC carried out........One man's freedom fighter....another man's terrorist etc.

The whole apologist thing has gotten out of hand. History is history...good or bad, it is what it is.
 
doodlebug

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DaveT said:
Ok. When you've worked out your position let us know. Flawed character undoubtedly but without him in that time period we would have been **.
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I agree with Matt. A statue is just a statue, but as far as Churchill is concerned, I and most of my countrymen know that NZ would have been a much different place without him.
 
rossyl

rossyl

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rockits said:
I can't say as I'm not of Kenyan heritage but I think if I was of Kenyan heritage I would want any symbol to remind me of that time to remain and exist. History is full of symbols for us to remember and not forget. Should we get rid of all symbols everywhere then so there will be no issues?

I would have thought 5,000 people convening in London is exactly the same as 5,000 people convening anywhere Brighton beach or otherwise. We know mass gatherings will be a problem so they need to be avoided. It is pretty irresponsible and selfish behaviour. Some people are not far off commiting involuntary manslaughter as someone somewhere could indirectly die from these very actions.
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As expected we completely agree, but I feel many others would not.

I learned in school, and from large parts of the British press, of the hero that is Churchill. I largely agree with that, I'm fairly well read on WW2.
But, in my view, a more balanced education in the UK, would surely be better though. And a reminder that just because you achieve a huge positive, it doesn't excuse someone's more negative acts. That's a good life lesson.

As for the 5,000 people meeting. Agreed. It doesn't matter where large gatherings take place. But, for that very reason, I don't understand why people who seem up in arms about the protests for reasons of mass gatherings, when they weren't similarly up in arms about meeting on the beach. I think I can unfortunately guess why.
 
rockits

rockits

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rossyl said:
As expected we completely agree, but I feel many others would not.

I learned in school, and from large parts of the British press, of the hero that is Churchill. I largely agree with that, I'm fairly well read on WW2.
But, in my view, a more balanced education in the UK, would surely be better though. And a reminder that just because you achieve a huge positive, it doesn't excuse someone's more negative acts. That's a good life lesson.

As for the 5,000 people meeting. Agreed. It doesn't matter where large gatherings take place. But, for that very reason, I don't understand why people who seem up in arms about the protests for reasons of mass gatherings, when they weren't similarly up in arms about meeting on the beach. I think I can unfortunately guess why.
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The problem is many people don't have an open mind or a balanced opinion. There is much bias even before any conversation or discussion.

I find it difficult to have respect for violent protesters. To deface and damage property is just not on. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Some people in society want things all their own way and don't want to offer much in return. Not in all cases of course but we need to wittle out these people that fit into that band. I have no issue with people making their point, making protests and trying to get any message heard. Violence is not something I could ever condone. It cannot happen this way. We are not cavemen anymore.
 
lozcb

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Nothing further to say other than im disappointed that there were no rubber bullets flying in the direction of the defacers, protest by all means in non covid times ................deface ...........its a rubber bullet or the birch
 
Felonious Crud

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allandwf said:
I agree, but a statue doesn't offend. I just ignore, but I suppose it's not in my garden so to speak. Are we going to replace street names etc. if they refer to something we don't like, or happen to disagree with?
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Pre-the World Cup in South Africa in 2010, many roads were renamed to non-Afrikaans / settler names. Unfortunately, the road maps and sat navs were not updated. It was bloody mayhem. I got extremely lost, a lot.
 
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lozcb

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rossyl said:
But...in reference to your two points.

What if you are of Kenyan heritage, and your grandfather/family member was tortured in a Churchill camp? Is it then ok, similar to those who suffered under Gaddafi, to pull down the statue.

As for the actions, purely in relation to lockdown. Is 5,000 people convening in London, better or worse than 5,000 people convening on Brighton beach?
Click to expand...

In that case if i understand your point , then should we also focus on all the worlds Pyramids .................all built i may add with slave labour ..................ooooh yes look African slavery again , the South american Pyramids Aztec and Inca ones, all built with slave labour and in some cases used for human sacrifice ....................lets destroy all of those shall we in the name of reconcilliation and awareness................after all we dont want to be accused of being selective do we now ........ :whistle: just a thought , would you like to suggest whete we might draw the line Xian...................Terra cotta warrior site the great wall of China ...........all built with slave labour
 
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Silvercat

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There are many historical representations
(statues, paintings, sculptures etc.. etc..) all over the UK, reflecting our diverse history, both good and bad. But there is a view that by ignoring our history, means that future generations could run the risk of repeating it, so its important to make sure that we don't forget it, but also in the right way of course.
This is why the likes of Auschwitz still exist today as a stark reminder to the world of the horrific acts that humanity is capable of carrying out, so that we never ever forget.
 
Felonious Crud

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lozcb said:
In that case if i understand your point , then should we also focus on all the worlds Pyramids .................all built i may add with slave labour ..................ooooh yes look African slavery again , the South american Pyramids Aztec and Inca ones, all built with slave labour and in some cases used for human sacrifice ....................lets destroy all of those shall we in the name of reconcilliation and awareness................after all we dont wont te be accused of being selective do we now ........ :whistle: just a thought , would you like to suggest whete we might draw the line Xian...................Terra cotta warrior site the great wall of China ...........all built with slave labour
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... and infrastructure in China and parts of Africa built by Chinese prisoners?

Oh, ****, let’s not go there again.

The world’s a complicated place, eh?
 
midlifecrisis

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Oneball said:
I’ve no particular desire to see a statue of Colston but it’s a part of our history, good or bad where does it stop? Should we tear down Julius Ceasar’s statue in the forum in Rome or Shaka Zulu’s in Camden or Boudica’s outside Parliament or Ramases the Great’s in Cairo or Moctezuma’s in Mexico City? They all owned slaves.

You can’t learn from the past by wiping it out. Almost certainly out of context but Santayana and Heine’s comments still hold true.
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Owning slaves is one thing (George Washington) but building your fortune on their trade, via enslaving, transportation of slaves (at a high attrition rate) and then selling the product of the slaves is another.
You wouldn't find a statue of Pablo Escobar or El Chapo Guzman
 
rossyl

rossyl

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lozcb said:
In that case if i understand your point , then should we also focus on all the worlds Pyramids .................all built i may add with slave labour ..................ooooh yes look African slavery again , the South american Pyramids Aztec and Inca ones, all built with slave labour and in some cases used for human sacrifice ....................lets destroy all of those shall we in the name of reconcilliation and awareness................after all we dont wont te be accused of being selective do we now ........ :whistle: just a thought , would you like to suggest whete we might draw the line Xian...................Terra cotta warrior site the great wall of China ...........all built with slave labour
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That wasn't my point.

I'm for having statues and monuments. Recognising and remembering history is important.

However, it is equally important to understand the full picture. To be taught the good as well as the bad. As I mentioned above, just because you achieve a huge positive, it doesn't excuse someone's more negative acts.

Having a more rounded view can only be helpful and build understanding.

EDIT: To add that, there seemed general consensus on removing statues of Sadaam/Gadaffi. Yet that's our view. Go ask someone currently living in Iraq, who isn't Kurdish, if they preferred life in Iraq now vs before?

Hence why a rounded education about the statue is needed, rather than just praising the good bits and forgetting the bad.

Violence and defacing statues is wrong. However, your suggestion of fighting violence with state-mandated violence, is, in my view worse than the initial violence. The moment the government starts firing bullets (rubber or not) on its own citizens, society has somewhat failed.
 
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Oneball

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midlifecrisis said:
Owning slaves is one thing (George Washington) but building your fortune on their trade, via enslaving, transportation of slaves (at a high attrition rate) and then selling the product of the slaves is another.
You wouldn't find a statue of Pablo Escobar or El Chapo Guzman
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Can’t see any difference between owning slaves and trading in them both are equally wrong.

Without the statue of Coulston and his name on buildings there wouldn’t have been the debate over Bristol’s slave trading legacy, if you pull them all down these things will be forgotten. Will anyone remember Guzman in 250 years?
 
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