Clutch replacement.

[GransportFan1]

This is what I would like to clear up. I am sure the clutch does need balancing, I am just trying to work out if they all do and if they are not, what is the consequence?

Just out of interest what is the price of a clutch on a 4200/GS at an Indy? about 1500 quid? including labour.

 

[conaero]

Adam, PM sent and you are about right on the clutch, they start from around £1100 but go up the more bits you have changed. The £1100 is just the plate and cover. There are 3 bearings (spigot, clutch and bellhousing) and the flywheel that need doing every other clutch.

 

[Emtee]

Just checking the part details on Eurospares and they show a range of balancing masses and also a clutch balancing kit (£520.00! ouch) so this would suggest balancing is required?

http://www.eurospares.co.uk/partTable.asp?M=3&Mo=389&A=1&B=20928&S=

http://www.eurospares.co.uk/userImages/031/Medium/031_023.gif

Masses are part number 59.
Clutch balancing kit is part number 2.

Is the kit a collection of balancing masses or are they different things?

Also I can't see any specific mention of the "spigot bearing", "bell house bearing" and "support bearing" that were mentioned earlier in this thread? Can anyone point me to the correct diagram numbers?

Also I see an F1 sensor, but no clutch sensor? Any clues?

Many thanks, Miles.

 

[conaero]

Myles

The clutch bearing is item 9
Bellhousing bearing is item 23

The spigot is item 9, it goes in the end of the crank, so on a different slide

 

[Emtee]

Matt, you are a Gent and a Scholar. Thanks.

 

[Roberts Aerospace]

I mean, the SD2/3 is something like £20-£30k

Yep

and so Mike Roberts told me the hardware is a joke.

I'm not sure I'd call it a joke, but it's certainly very expensive for what it is. Especially when compared to the Alfa/Fiat/Lancia Examiner equipment (which I also have) - given that they are all the same company, and a lot of the systems are similar, they could have just added Maserati and Ferrari to the examiner platform very easily as similar engine, ABS, and airbag ECUs are already supported on the Examiner platform.

In fact, as the sensors on Maseratis are the same - or electrically similar - as on Alfas, I'm extremely glad that I have all the Examiner analogue testing equipment so that I can test for Maserati sensor failure directly rather than relying on the SD2. And, the Lancia PRO-1 tester I have does a brilliant job on older QPs and Ghiblis as they use a virtually identical ECU to the Lancia Integrale.

Ok they can say that the software development is expensive, but I think not. They are only protecting their marque by making it as hard as possible to for anyone else to work on them.

As I said, if they really wanted to keep the cost down, they'd have added it to the Examiner platform. But, if they did that, any FIAT garage on the planet would be able to fix your Maserati, and that wouldn't do at all!

 

[Roberts Aerospace]

So a dealer could reset the KIS point and then sell the car with low or little clutch wear showing. So dont rely on SD readouts when buying a used Maserati.

Actually, I came across a car like this recently when an independent dealer brought it to me to be checked out.

The clutch wear was showing 100%, but the car was driving. Normally, at 100%, there would be problems in engaging gear. However, the KIS point had been set to 12. Yes, TWELVE.

There was obviously a story there as either the clutch had been set up incorrectly to start with, or it was worn out completely and the KIS point had been changed to manually take up the wear. The car had done 24K miles - long enough for it to have worn the clutch out.

Incidentally, changing the KIS number does not seem to change the % wear on the SD2 - bring your car over on Tue and I'll show you! The incident I've been describing being a case in point, when the KIS was changed to 5.0, the car wouldn't engage gear - exactly what I've expect for a car with 100% clutch wear. Returning it back to 12 saw the car engage drive again. I've never seen anything like it before, and so I expect that it's not representitive though.

Mike.

 

[Roberts Aerospace]

On the general subject of transaxle clutches, all I can say that with the torque tube, there are a lot of competing rotating masses there and balance is crucial. The Maserati design calls for all these rotating masses to be balanced individually, and then as a group. When the group is balanced, the balancing is done on the clutch. Although the clutch may be balanced at the factory, they cannot take into account of imbalances in the flywheel, torque tube, or other rotating masses, that the final on-car balancing of the clutch is meant to take into account.

When one of my customers needs a new clutch on a transaxle car, I always send them to a main dealer. They can do it for around £1500, have an excellent warranty, have done loads of them, have the right equipment, and an out of balance clutch can accelerate wear of components like bearings and so on.

If you think changing a Maserati transaxle clutch is a pain, you should try a 1960s Aston Martin clutch for a real challenge...

Mike.

 

[Parisien]

Isn't it great to see sound advice and an experienced voice on the board! Thanks Mike for that! Am sure there will be a few more ancillary questions though!


P

 

[lozcb]

On the general subject of transaxle clutches, all I can say that with the torque tube, there are a lot of competing rotating masses there and balance is crucial. The Maserati design calls for all these rotating masses to be balanced individually, and then as a group. When the group is balanced, the balancing is done on the clutch. Although the clutch may be balanced at the factory, they cannot take into account of imbalances in the flywheel, torque tube, or other rotating masses, that the final on-car balancing of the clutch is meant to take into account.

When one of my customers needs a new clutch on a transaxle car, I always send them to a main dealer. They can do it for around £1500, have an excellent warranty, have done loads of them, have the right equipment, and an out of balance clutch can accelerate wear of components like bearings and so on.

If you think changing a Maserati transaxle clutch is a pain, you should try a 1960s Aston Martin clutch for a real challenge...

Mike.

Cheers Mike kind of bears out what Myles was saying from Emblem


reghards loz

 

[Emtee]

In fact, as the sensors on Maseratis are the same - or electrically similar - as on Alfas, I'm extremely glad that I have all the Examiner analogue testing equipment so that I can test for Maserati sensor failure directly rather than relying on the SD2.

Mike, Many thanks for your comments! Most helpful.

I have a few questions if I may?..

I'm curious about your comment regarding the sensors and the SD2? You seem to imply the SD2 is possibly unreliable?
Are you referring to the F1 sensor and the clutch sensor(s)?
What are the symptoms of failure and is it common for them to fail?

Any pointers gratefully received.

With thanks, Miles.

 

[Parisien]

Guys, this is all getting very complicated..................

Can some one take the forum through a step by step guide as to how the clutch is actually set up.......

Whats done at each stage......what they are checking and looking for.......

Signs and symptoms of imminent faliure/failure......


NOT so much from mechanical perspective but from an SD2/3......diagnostic equipment aspect?!


P

 

[conaero]

Thanks Mike, nice to have the ACTUAL low down on this, and yes, it does appear that you cant do a clutch without balancing it.

If one was to change it on a DIY basis and not balance it, you might get lucky and it be fine, but then someone else on here could have a go themselves and it be terrible.

Food for thought!

 

[Emtee]

Sorry, I'm going to muddy the water again.

Went to Shiltech this afternoon to ask specifically about changing the clutch on my car after Llandow. Stu, their Maserati 'specialist' said he hasn't balanced a clutch for many years. He did say that when he worked at Greypaul when they were in Loughborough (which makes it probably more than ten years ago) they did balance them, but that they stopped as it was no longer deemed necessary. Geoff also commented that they don't need to balance clutches for the Fezza's either, unless it's a full race preparation.

So both Stu and Geoff are of the opinion that although balancing can be carried out (hence the availability of shims on Eurospares), it's actually not necessary.

They also commented that the prices for parts are all over the place at the moment, changing on an almost daily basis.

 

[Parisien]

They also commented that the prices for parts are all over the place at the moment, changing on an almost daily basis.

In our favour....or?


Whats dropped dramtically, that we all might want?!




P

 

[Emtee]

In our favour....or?


Whats dropped dramtically, that we all might want?!




P

Sorry P, tho' Geoff did say they were erratic, the overall shift was up, and at a rate of knots! He's shopping around to get the best he can, but it sounds like he's fighting a loosing battle. I dread to think what his spend is for parts. Yes I know it's recharged, but the cashflow must take some balancing (unlike the clutches)

 

[ENZ525]

Sorry, I'm going to muddy the water again.

Went to Shiltech this afternoon to ask specifically about changing the clutch on my car after Llandow. Stu, their Maserati 'specialist' said he hasn't balanced a clutch for many years. He did say that when he worked at Greypaul when they were in Loughborough (which makes it probably more than ten years ago) they did balance them, but that they stopped as it was no longer deemed necessary. Geoff also commented that they don't need to balance clutches for the Fezza's either, unless it's a full race preparation.

So both Stu and Geoff are of the opinion that although balancing can be carried out (hence the availability of shims on Eurospares), it's actually not necessary.

They also commented that the prices for parts are all over the place at the moment, changing on an almost daily basis.

I Think I have to agree Miles...
Was quite some time ago, probably over a year, but I do recall having a conversation with Rob at Grimaldi Engineering,
Was just one of those Saturday morning chats about everything and nothing...
but I'm almost 100% sure he said that the clutch balancing machines were redundant,
Regards,
Enzo.

 

[lozcb]

I Think I have to agree Miles...
Was quite some time ago, probably over a year, but I do recall having a conversation with Rob at Grimaldi Engineering,
Was just one of those Saturday morning chats about everything and nothing...
but I'm almost 100% sure he said that the clutch balancing machines were redundant,
Regards,
Enzo.

Definately worth clarifying Enzo , even for peace of mind, i hate grey areas , still rather leave it in the hands of a proffessional tho , i have and would attempt clutches on run of the mill stuff , but im afraid the masser would be done by those that know there stuff and have the right equipment

regards loz

 

[conaero]

Go on Loz, have a go, I know I will.

I have another mole in a main dealer at the moment who is doing some undercover SM investigations, so if he comes up with the same conclusion as above, I will do my next clutch, especially as I am looking into a 4 post lift at the moment.

Do the clutch yourself, buy a 4 post lift with the money you saved.....simples!

Brand new 975 notes:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SUPERB-BRAND-...g_Equipment&hash=item4cef9ecba2#ht_4163wt_989

2.7meters in height, I am gona get the tape measure out tonight.

 

[Parisien]

Makes sense if the inside info is coming heavily down on the side of no balancing required!

P