CLOSED Brexit Poll

Do you want to leave the EU?

  • Yes - Leave the EU

    Votes: 85 55.9%
  • No - Stay in the EU

    Votes: 60 39.5%
  • Dont Know

    Votes: 7 4.6%

  • Total voters
    152
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zagatoes30

Member
Messages
20,987
Sorry to resurrect this thread.

As the big day gets closer, no not Le Mans, the scale of debate is getting worse. I have no idea how the general public are going to make a valid choice based on the arguments / debates that are currently being touted around in the mass media. Both sides seem to be happy to spout false or inaccurate comments and deem them as facts and even when they are shown to be invalid make no apologies and continue to use them.

Is this the level of debate and choice our politicians have dragged us down to?
 
Messages
6,001
Afraid you are right. The debate standard is abysmal.
I recently heard an old debate between Tony Benn and another chappie (forget his name) about the EU years ago. Comparing to todays rabble it is like chalk and cheese.
I am 1/2 expecting the devil to pop up and condemn us all if we don't do this or that
Very Very Poor
There are no facts though
No one knows what will happen if we stay or go
 

2b1ask1

Special case
Messages
20,286
No one knows what will happen if we stay or go

This I suspect is the rub of it, actually not a lot I suspect.

The latest social media buzz it seems is controversy over non-eligible people getting sent polling cards and possible 'fudging' of results; given the lies we are being fed, from both sides, I'm really expecting it to be the case.
 

MrMickS

Member
Messages
3,962
There are no real hard facts just forecasts and opinions. There isn't an economic body in the world that hasn't predicted that the outcome on the economy would be negative, at least in the short to medium term. In the long term 10+ years there may be a benefit, but predicting economies that far in the future isn't much different than reading entrails.

The lack of real facts has an impact on the debate. The pro-leave faction has devolved into tub thumping patriotism and xenophobia. The remain faction doesn't have anyone with any charisma or presence to counter this.
 

MrMickS

Member
Messages
3,962
This I suspect is the rub of it, actually not a lot I suspect.

The latest social media buzz it seems is controversy over non-eligible people getting sent polling cards and possible 'fudging' of results; given the lies we are being fed, from both sides, I'm really expecting it to be the case.


I was involved with the voter registration a couple of years ago. I'd be interested how they think that non-eligible people are getting voting cards. Sounds like FUD to me
 

GeoffCapes

Member
Messages
14,000
There are no real hard facts just forecasts and opinions. There isn't an economic body in the world that hasn't predicted that the outcome on the economy would be negative, at least in the short to medium term. In the long term 10+ years there may be a benefit, but predicting economies that far in the future isn't much different than reading entrails.

The lack of real facts has an impact on the debate. The pro-leave faction has devolved into tub thumping patriotism and xenophobia. The remain faction doesn't have anyone with any charisma or presence to counter this.

I saw something the other day that has said 95% of the leading worlds economists are certain that a Brexit will leave the country in decline for at least 5 years.
Then I saw Michael Gove yesterday say that Brexit would have an initial down turn in the economy but in 10-15-20 years it would be great for the country! Wtf?

Like we can wait that long for them to make things good?

The more I see things the more I think leaving the EU would be a disaster for the UK.
And I was beginning to think that it might be a good idea.

Certainly not now!
 

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
48,859
The same economists who managed to completely not predict the global crash? As one economist pointed out on the news the other day.

C
 

GeoffCapes

Member
Messages
14,000
The same economists who managed to completely not predict the global crash? As one economist pointed out on the news the other day.

C

I think you'll find that a number of economists predicted the global crash.
Do you ever read The Daily Reckoning? A very interesting read.
 

rossyl

Member
Messages
3,312
There are no real hard facts just forecasts and opinions. There isn't an economic body in the world that hasn't predicted that the outcome on the economy would be negative, at least in the short to medium term. In the long term 10+ years there may be a benefit, but predicting economies that far in the future isn't much different than reading entrails.

The lack of real facts has an impact on the debate. The pro-leave faction has devolved into tub thumping patriotism and xenophobia. The remain faction doesn't have anyone with any charisma or presence to counter this.

THIS

I have attended a few talk, not by politicians. Instead an economist, a professor of law, a security expert, and an expert on britiain and the EU who has written the book on it.

Most of them say, with their heart they want to be OUT. A free Britain, a Britain without other people telling us what to do, standing on our own two feet. But with their head, the benefits are minimal, and the potential for negative impact is high. They were clear that it is the potential negative effects as no-one really knows, but they felt it was too big a gamble to take.

The reality post-BREXIT would be that the EU would still tell us what to do. Anything you want to sell in to the EU, still has to meet EU Standards. We just would not have a say in what those standards would be.

The numerous trade deals we have for various countries around the globe would be invalid, as we have signed up to them through the EU. That would take a lot of re-negotiating.

On the EU trade deal. The question that no pro-Leave person can answer is - Why would they EU give Britain a better deal once we have left? If they agree to it, won't other countries request the same. Where is the impetus for the EU to do that.

Also, what sort of economy would we be post-BREXIT. I have seen talk of Signapore or Hong Kong. But that involves living in a de-regulated economy and relying a lot on....cheap immigration! So if that were the new basis of the economy, we would need more immigrants at the lower job level.

From a selfish point of view, if the sterling drops, which it is roundly expected to do prost-Brexit, interest rates will go up. I am happy with my mortgage payments as they are. I don't want even 1 year of high payments, worse still 5 years.
 

TridentTested

Member
Messages
1,819
On the EU trade deal. The question that no pro-Leave person can answer is - Why would they EU give Britain a better deal once we have left? If they agree to it, won't other countries request the same. Where is the impetus for the EU to do that.

It's worse than that. There will not only be no impetus for them to extend a helping hand to a post-EU Britain, in fact there will be internal pressure to purposely give Britain a bad deal to demonstrate to their own 'leave' factions (and all countries have them) that leaving is truly a bad idea.

I have family in Ireland and France and one aspect that is being discussed in both countries, and not reported in the UK, is many EU countries are watching this with dread. If the UK does leave, it is not too difficult to imagine others leaving shortly after, precipitating the break up of the union. Many in the UK might think 'good, serves 'em right' but that would be chaos with countries retreating into xenophobic nationalism; an economic and social disaster.
 

Swedish Paul

Member
Messages
1,811
I don't think that leaving will have a great impact long term for low paid people (of which there are a huge amount) or people on benefits. Or young people. They are already at the bottom of a trough and the only way is up. And they have been looking for a scapegoat for a long time. If they vote, and vote Brexit, then Brexit will win.

Folks a little bit better off more white collar jobs, and those owning more properties than they can count on one finger will be greatest affected. Anyone who believes that interest rates can stay low forever is not being realistic. There will be a correction (which is long overdue), but I think Brexit will bring forward that correction on a global scale. What I cannot understand is why Europe have treated the UK with such contempt with such high stakes.

There must be many a person absolutely crapping themselves that the vote to leave wins.
 

allandwf

Member
Messages
10,995
There is so much @@@###@@@s being talked by both sides, no one really knows how it will effect us either way. I'm going to think about what I want from the union and decide if it delivers that or not, then vote accordingly. The way the scaremongering from each side is going makes you want to do the exact opposite!
 

zagatoes30

Member
Messages
20,987
What I cannot understand is why Europe have treated the UK with such contempt with such high stakes.

There must be many a person absolutely crapping themselves that the vote to leave wins.

I suspect a vote to leave will force the EU to reform, I think there are a number of countries that are asking similar questions but at the moment they aren't putting their heads above the parapet.
 

Needamaser

Member
Messages
1,499
There is so much @@@###@@@s being talked by both sides, no one really knows how it will effect us either way. I'm going to think about what I want from the union and decide if it delivers that or not, then vote accordingly. The way the scaremongering from each side is going makes you want to do the exact opposite!

This is just like watching a repeat of the Scottish Independence "debate"!
Sadly it will simply get worse.
 

BennyD

Sea Urchin Pate
Messages
15,006
I suspect a vote to leave will force the EU to reform, I think there are a number of countries that are asking similar questions but at the moment they aren't putting their heads above the parapet.

I agree, that's one of the reasons why we should leave; it would FORCE the EU to look at itself and refor......would it f*ck. Those idiots won't do that for anyone.
 

midlifecrisis

Member
Messages
16,257
My take on this is that it's all a waste of time, money and newspapers.
I look at things from the endpoint and work backwards, taking in the wider picture.
If we vote in, that's it. Ukip pack up and go home and re-emerge if five years time asking for another once in a lifetime referendum.
If we vote out, Cameron can go to Europe with more of a bargaining stick to beat the European union with. They may budge on certain things but not everything.
The upshot is that we won't actually Leave. Especially on the 24th June like some idiots think.
If Cameron comes back empty handed even with a no vote from the UK population, it'll be game over politically and we'll have a new PM by the end of the year due to a Conservative leadership challenge... Boris anyone.
 

dem maser

Moderator
Messages
34,266
Boris all the way for me......

I dont know all the facts so until i read up i wont be voting, i dont think we will leave, i can pretty much guarantee we will remaIN.
 

MrMickS

Member
Messages
3,962
What I don't understand are all of the politicos that want to leave. They'll have to be responsible for things then instead of being able to say "the EU made us", or "the EU won't let us". Seem's very risky from their point of view.

The biggest factor for me is that they quote Norway and Switzerland as examples for us to follow if we leave. They both pay a chunk of cash, with nothing back in rebates or grants, and have to adopt a lot of the rules as law, to gain access to the single market. All this talk of us not having to adopt the laws or have all the money back is complete and utter nonsense. Unless we don't want access to the single market in which case we instant make all of our goods more expensive.
 

midlifecrisis

Member
Messages
16,257
What I don't understand are all of the politicos that want to leave. They'll have to be responsible for things then instead of being able to say "the EU made us", or "the EU won't let us". Seem's very risky from their point of view.

The biggest factor for me is that they quote Norway and Switzerland as examples for us to follow if we leave. They both pay a chunk of cash, with nothing back in rebates or grants, and have to adopt a lot of the rules as law, to gain access to the single market. All this talk of us not having to adopt the laws or have all the money back is complete and utter nonsense. Unless we don't want access to the single market in which case we instant make all of our goods more expensive.
Exactly, MPs etc can't hide behind the eu cloak.
Also I regularly buy stuff from Norway and it's tedious to pay duty to the DHL man. Yet if I was to buy the same item through their Spanish parent company, no duty to pay! But higher price to pay (duty)
 
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