Transmission Failure after F1 relay change.

[HowardM]

Hello,

I've fairly recently graduated from an ALFA 166 Super to a 2006 Quattroporte. I decided to make the move after reading some of the excellent advise on this forum. I've been messing about with cars all my life so I was hoping to be able to contribute to the forum before having to ask for help but unfortunately it hasn't worked out that way!

I decided to change the F1 relay to guard against F1 pump failure (relay R22). Car was working perfectly before I attempted this, but after changing the relay I got 'Transmission Failure' and as the car was left in gear it can't change into neutral in order to start the engine. So thinking the new relay may be duff I put the old one back in and still the same problem! Thinking I may have shorted something I checked the 20A and 30A fuses (MF69, MF70) but both are intact. Weird thing is I can hear the f1 pump running and indeed upon checking the voltages on the relay all seemed OK. So final straw I disconnected the battery for about half an hour but upon reconnecting still had the same result.

So I'm hoping someone out there may be able to offer some words of wisdom?

 

[CatmanV2]

Very odd.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any logical reason, unless you've sparked something nasty.

I shall sleep on it, but don't hold your breath

C

 

[HowardM]

Catmanv2,

Thanks for the quick reply. From what I've read of the various forums, I agree, it does seem odd. I did remove relay R23 (rear connected devices 1) as well in order to more easily remove the F1 relay. I think this is for the rear can bus node (NVB) but as everything seems to work OK (e.g. electronic boot release) I don't think that could be a factor. I sure hope I haven't sparked something nasty!

 

[CatmanV2]

OK, are you really *really* sure that R23 is back in correctly and not damaged? That would seem a *far* more likely culprit than the F1 relay which basically has one job

C

 

[Gixerboy]

Couple of questions!

Was ignition off/ key out Emgine in N when you changed it?
Have you checked the relay terminals are actually making contact with the spade connections?
Have you disturbed the adjacent relay because this supplies the control signals to the coil terminals for the F1 relay?
As with most things I'm sure it will be something simple,.
On my car the pump became a bit sluggish, & although could be heard running, was not developing enough pressure. This brought up the Red Gearbox light.

So if you can hear the pump prime when you open the door, that kind of proves the relay is working, if not enough pressure, that would stop it shifting.

Cheers

 

[HowardM]

Catmanv2,

I'll check it again in the morning. it measured OK across the coil terminals but I was assuming it was seated OK as the boot release was working. My owners manual says R23 is for the NVB node which I didn't think had anything to do with the gearbox?

 

[CatmanV2]

Catmanv2,

I'll check it again in the morning. it measured OK across the coil terminals but I was assuming it was seated OK as the boot release was working. My owners manual says R23 is for the NVB node which I didn't think had anything to do with the gearbox?

Who knows
Just thinking that the F1 *only* does the pump so logic kind of dictates something else is wrong.

OTOH I've been at the toffee vodka, and I'm exhausted after Brunty, so....

C

 

[HowardM]

Gixerboy,

Many thanks for your reply. To answer your questions:

The ignition was off and key removed, but the gearbox was in D not N - is this likely to be an issue?
I probed the R22 (F1 relay) on the wires on the connector, and all seemed ok except that the control signal was around 10V - would you expect to see 12V?
I did remove the adjacent relay (R23) in order to more easily change the F1 relay. However, after reading the owners manual it didn't seem like this had anything to do with the gearbox, but given your comments I'll have a good look at it in the morning.
Interesting comments about the F1 pump being sluggish but given that the car was working perfectly before I changed the relay this seems unlikely. I'll bear it in mind though.

I sure hope it's something simple as you say!

 

[HowardM]

Catmanv2,

Agree, it's got to be something I've fiddled with. Just not sure how the electronics react to having stuff changed. Having said that I am an electronics engineer so do have a bit of a clue but not having the source code available it's a job to second guess it!

 

[EnzoMC]

did you try a power reset ? swith off and leave for about 20 mins....

even with the key off I think power is still going to the relay as when opening the door, this triggers/primes the system... I know maybe a little late but try power off and put a relay in - maybe you've blown one of them...

good luck

 

[spkennyuk]

Catmanv2,

I'll check it again in the morning. it measured OK across the coil terminals but I was assuming it was seated OK as the boot release was working. My owners manual says R23 is for the NVB node which I didn't think had anything to do with the gearbox?

The NVB relay is for the luggage compartment. Boot release, rear blinds, courtesy lights and other items

View the document here and look at page 170/171 onwards
http://www.scribd.com/doc/201140059/...Comfort#scribd

 

[spkennyuk]

Also look at the last post #23 on the thread below. Seems some manuals may show the wrong info in relations to the car.

http://www.sportsmaserati.co.uk/showthread.php/14310-QP-F1-Relay/page3

 

[voicey]

Where are you? If the pump is turning on and off then your problem isn't the relay. You need to get the errors read off the TCU.

 

[HowardM]

did you try a power reset ? swith off and leave for about 20 mins....

even with the key off I think power is still going to the relay as when opening the door, this triggers/primes the system... I know maybe a little late but try power off and put a relay in - maybe you've blown one of them...

good luck

I tried the power reset, but symptoms were the same. I'm just checking through all the fuses and relays to make sure all are healthy.

 

[HowardM]

spkennyuk,

Thanks for the links, very useful information! I've been tracing the wiring a little in the boot and I also think the manual may be wrong. I'll post a diagram or something later, my be useful for someone else.

 

[HowardM]

Where are you? If the pump is turning on and off then your problem isn't the relay. You need to get the errors read off the TCU.

I'm in Huntingdon near Cambridge.

I'm starting to think this may just be coincidence. I said in my original post that the car was working perfectly before I changed the relay. Which is true but I parked the car on the drive on Wednesday evening and I didn't actually check that all was well just before I changed the relay on Thursday morning.

 

[voicey]

I'm in Huntingdon near Cambridge.

I'm starting to think this may just be coincidence. I said in my original post that the car was working perfectly before I changed the relay. Which is true but I parked the car on the drive on Wednesday evening and I didn't actually check that all was well just before I changed the relay on Thursday morning.

A bit too far for me to come out - sorry.

 

[EnzoMC]

as voicey suggest need to get errors off the Control unit with SD2 - best option

maybe one other option in case both relays are broke, I noticed with my investigation into my issue that the fan 1st and 2nd stage use the same relays (in a GS) if same on yours you could temporary try one of them.

 

[HowardM]

A bit too far for me to come out - sorry.

No worries, thanks for the thought anyway.

 

[HowardM]

as voicey suggest need to get errors off the Control unit with SD2 - best option

maybe one other option in case both relays are broke, I noticed with my investigation into my issue that the fan 1st and 2nd stage use the same relays (in a GS) if same on yours you could temporary try one of them.

I've just done a thorough check of both relays with a multimeter. Both are receiving signal and switching as expected. Weird thing is I can hear the F1 pump running but it never shuts off so definitely seems like there's something else wrong. As it happens the car is booked in tomorrow to have some work done that was outstanding from when I bought the car, so I'll probably get it recovered there so they can have a look at it. I'll let the forum know how it turns out.