The death of Supercars as we know ‘em

[Felonious Crud]

Agreed- but how many car lovers do that?

So far, just Peter.

It’s fine if a car has only a functional value to you - gets you to the station, to work whatever. But if you want a car that you actually want rather than need (and I think we all fall into that camp), you need to be willing to lose a few quid on it.

Funny thing, we all buy holidays but no one ever complains that they'll never see the money again. Why do we expect cars, something else we all enjoy, to not lose any money?

 

[bigbob]

This is an interesting article. It focuses maninly on Ferrari from an investment perspective, but also touches on topics that we all skim over - exclusivity, the death of ICE, financing, residual values, is this the end of days for ‘our’ kind of cars. Worth a skim.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4325637-how-to-destroy-great-global-brand-and-cult-of-ferrari

Good find. I agree with the comments about ICE cars moving out of favour - mates who own fast cars are all sitting on their hands and only replacing the mundane family cars (usually big SUVs but buying on PCPs to get the put option) - but don't necessarily buy into the loss of exclusivity point. Corona Virus aside, the number people who can afford these cars is increasingly rapidly and Ferrari's doubling of production is linked to the launch of an SUV. Sure we are moving to the situation where sports cars brands get better residuals on their SUVs than mid-engined two seaters but that is just changing customer taste and doesn't mean that the outlook for these companies is poor.

Whatever, I would not overpay for any fast coupe/convertible these days as the market is heading south............the market that Maserati is about to launch into!

 

[Wagons-Lits]

Good find. I agree with the comments about ICE cars moving out of favour - mates who own fast cars are all sitting on their hands and only replacing the mundane family cars (usually big SUVs but buying on PCPs to get the put option) - but don't necessarily buy into the loss of exclusivity point. Corona Virus aside, the number people who can afford these cars is increasingly rapidly and Ferrari's doubling of production is linked to the launch of an SUV. Sure we are moving to the situation where sports cars brands get better residuals on their SUVs than mid-engined two seaters but that is just changing customer taste and doesn't mean that the outlook for these companies is poor.

Whatever, I would not overpay for any fast coupe/convertible these days as the market is heading south............the market that Maserati is about to launch into!

Thanks OP for linking the article, it's an interesting if somewhat rambling treatise. Autonomous pod cars replacing Ferraris? Very unlikely to happen in our lifetime.

I think bigbob has raised a crucial point: the pool of potential buyers has increased dramatically in the last 30 years. There is no point in building an aspirational product, especially for new aspirational markets, if people cannot buy it.

Super cars and expensive cars have always suffered horrific depreciation, Ferrari being no different that others. Even if that base of support is in terminal decline the best examples will always sell and always have a group of enthusiasts to support them. Race horses aren't going anywhere and apparently keep enough (wealthy) owners interested. Maybe what we need is a Ladies Day Maserati race

Horses and cars are emotional pursuits, be ware to those who try to argue with a spreadsheet otherwise

 

[rossyl]

This is an interesting article. It focuses maninly on Ferrari from an investment perspective, but also touches on topics that we all skim over - exclusivity, the death of ICE, financing, residual values, is this the end of days for ‘our’ kind of cars. Worth a skim.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4325637-how-to-destroy-great-global-brand-and-cult-of-ferrari

Thanks Adam, as someone who is about to put all their money into a car, that article hasn't scared the living daylights out of me at all....!!

I do think autonomous vehicles in cities will be coming, probably within the next decade. However, beyond big cities I question if it will work.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that cars don't end up worthless in the very near future.

 

[Motorsport3]

While i agree on comments on oversupply of ICE vehicles for some time now, I also agree with the view that while electric cars will replace the utility, rare / exclusive ICE will always have some interest much as horses have enthusiast base. No idea what is going to happen to prices but maybe a reasonable proxy is the 2-stroke bike market. 10-20 years ago these were considered unreliable, smelly and relatively expensive to run. 10years off production and anything with more than one cylinder is considered collectible.

 

[Felonious Crud]

Thanks Adam, as someone who is about to put all their money into a car, that article hasn't scared the living daylights out of me at all....!!

I do think autonomous vehicles in cities will be coming, probably within the next decade. However, beyond big cities I question if it will work.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that cars don't end up worthless in the very near future.

Good man!

I'd argue that the pace of change and advancement in electric vehicles is so rapid than anything good today will be shite tomorrow. Really, really mad place to put your money, plus you won't enjoy it as much. If you must, lease it.

What are you buying?

 

[iainw]

So far, just Peter.

It’s fine if a car has only a functional value to you - gets you to the station, to work whatever. But if you want a car that you actually want rather than need (and I think we all fall into that camp), you need to be willing to lose a few quid on it.

Funny thing, we all buy holidays but no one ever complains that they'll never see the money again. Why do we expect cars, something else we all enjoy, to not lose any money?

Agree ++. And sometime holidays are ludicrously expensive and short lived. Cars can give repeated pleasure over a long period...

 

[zagatoes30]

Like some of the above I only buy cars and have even then only once new. I have never directly leased a car although in theory the Motorbility car we use to have for our son was exactly that the difference being it was paid for by part of his DLA payment.

It seems to me the lease / pcp market is driving the over production of new cars which in turn is driving down resale values. This is consumerism at its worse building an inflated market on those that can't really afford it. This issue applies to lots of different sectors, the keep up with the Jones mentality.

I don't see myself as green or eco focussed at all but in lots of areas follow a re-use policy buying stuff I couldn't afford new when its a few years old and has depreciated nicely.

 

[Felonious Crud]

It seems to me the lease / pcp market is driving the over production of new cars which in turn is driving down resale values. This is consumerism at its worse building an inflated market on those that can't really afford it. This issue applies to lots of different sectors, the keep up with the Jones mentality.

I don't see myself as green or eco focussed at all but in lots of areas follow a re-use policy buying stuff I couldn't afford new when its a few years old and has depreciated nicely.

Andy, I agree with you there. I had company cars for years and accidentally fell into the the habit of buying new when I started buying my own. It's only in the last 8 years or so when I've realised what a stupid bloody idea it is to buy new. The only way I see that working is if you are happy to buy on finance and treat the deposit and monthies the same as you would on a lease car i.e. as a renter and you're happy to lose the money because you plan to give back at the end. Whether that's daft or not is not for me to say, but if people do that and start returning nice cars to the market at 2, 3 years old that's great news for the rest of us.

 

[dickygrace]

Dropped my son off at his mate’s place yesterday (in a 4.7 V8). They had two charging cables hanging out of the front window, both plugged in to brand new Leccy Golfs. The temp outside was 4°, the 4” gap in the window leaking out plenty of warmth generated at the local coal-fuelled power station. ‘I knew you had one, but I see you’ve both got one now’ I said, perfectly pleasantly. ‘Well we’re doing our bit for the planet’ came the response.

Honestly, these are well-educated local business owners!! My question is, the reason.... we all know it’s done for BIK/Tax/Vat reasons, but do you think people honestly believe that buying a brand new electric car is helping the environment? Sadly, I actually think some do, but plenty use it for tax purposes and hide behind the eco angle.

Anyone on here bought a fully electric car? One simple question which I’d love an honest answer to; Why?

 

[rockits]

I agree Dicky. Doesn't make sense. Kind of robbing from Peter to pay Paul. It can works for some but many I expect it doesn't more than it does.

I bought a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Juro 2 seater commercial for work for a few different reasons.

First and foremost it was a cost effective way to get a decent commercial we.neded into the business. The VAT was 100% recoverable day one. There was 100% capital allowances claimable day one. The govt grant of £7900 made the price swallowable. I bought it as a pre reg with delivery miles for circa £23k. Got me a BP Chargemaster fast charger installed at home with £500 govt grant contribution meaning we paid the £240 balance.

Secondly if I can reduce emissions and help the environment then great. We work occasionally in London CC and ULEZ so means this is zero cost.

Then the failings chip in the reduce the benefits for all. The range on EV only is 28 miles on paper. In the real world it is half that on average. Great for school runs but no good for us as we don't use it for that. We can get to many customers on EV but then can't get back and have to use the ICE. I have barely ever been able to charge it in London when at.the customer end so never made it there and back on EV.

The ICE is a 2.4 petrol 4 cyl unit with CVT and is not very efficient. Means the EV saving on the journey to is reduced on the way back. It is a jack of all trades and master of none really.

The loads space is perfect for us, it is safe, comfortable, well equipment and drives well.

Problem is it is a flawed vehicle as doesn't do the EV but well enough as range is too small and the infrastructure is way behind meaning you can't charge it hardly anywhere.

Only placed and job I managed to charge it was while setting up a new restaurant in Belize Village. Got there on EV and parked in a Source London bay. I was there about 3 hours but it was only a slow charger so didn't charge up enough to get me back to he office on EV. Only 8 miles range charged in 3 hours!

For people at home with off street parking and using it for schools runs and short local journeys it does indeed work. Any other scenario it doesn't work well enough.

I was intrigued and what to try it out in the real world. In reality it doesn't achieve anything it was created to do really so is fatally flawed. No worse than an efficient modern petrol or diesel ICE but not better really. Which is surely the point.

As we all know the range needs to be better but the charging infrastructure needs to improve not just a little bit but massively.

 

[rockits]

However if it was a full EV and had even a 100 mile range we would be fine for a majority of our business journeys. Although maybe it would need to be 200 miles to convince me to go full EV. Only because I can use a different vehicle if needed for a longer journey though.

Problem then is if the tax incentives are reduced or taken away then that is another consideration.

 

[midlifecrisis]

Just found out today that tesla 3s are not as good accelerating as a GT and they tend to brake check you too...

 

[rockits]

I don't think that Tesla 3 had its foot to the floor. I drove a Tesla Model 3 Performance and it the fastest thing I had driven by a long stretch.

 

[midlifecrisis]

I don't think that Tesla 3 had its foot to the floor. I drove a Tesla Model 3 Performance and it the fastest thing I had driven by a long stretch.

I was in Surrey, that explains a lot.

 

[Oneball]

Dropped my son off at his mate’s place yesterday (in a 4.7 V8). They had two charging cables hanging out of the front window, both plugged in to brand new Leccy Golfs. The temp outside was 4°, the 4” gap in the window leaking out plenty of warmth generated at the local coal-fuelled power station. ‘I knew you had one, but I see you’ve both got one now’ I said, perfectly pleasantly. ‘Well we’re doing our bit for the planet’ came the response.

Honestly, these are well-educated local business owners!! My question is, the reason.... we all know it’s done for BIK/Tax/Vat reasons, but do you think people honestly believe that buying a brand new electric car is helping the environment? Sadly, I actually think some do, but plenty use it for tax purposes and hide behind the eco angle.

Anyone on here bought a fully electric car? One simple question which I’d love an honest answer to; Why?

If they weren’t so expensive to buy we’d have one instead of the Nic’s 108, mainly because for the journeys she does it’d be perfect and it’d be cheaper than petrol. But we’re aren’t daft enough to spend £30k on one.

A lot of people believe the environmental stuff, they believed a GTi would bed Paula Hamilton, that Babycham was the height of sophistication and that a Wonderbra would make up for being from Wednesbury (that one might be true) so why not the latest advertising?

There is one massive plus for a lot of people, I’m not sure who said, it I think it was Chris Harris, “Teslas are the perfect car for people who don’t like cars”.

I love the cables out the window. It’s like people who pay £60k for a BMW buy won’t spend the extra £150 on hands free.

PS I always think having his and her’s cars is a bit weird.

 

[Wanderer]

A hybrid caught fire recently here in Dublin, fire brigade said it took 2 tonnes of water and 24 hours to put it out.

Hybrid car fire poses challenge as Dublin firefighters battle blaze in Swords

The car fire took two tonnes of water to be stopped by firefighters

www.dublinlive.ie

 

[Wack61]

A hybrid caught fire recently here in Dublin, fire brigade said it took 2 tonnes of water and 24 hours to put it out.

Hybrid car fire poses challenge as Dublin firefighters battle blaze in Swords

The car fire took two tonnes of water to be stopped by firefighters

www.dublinlive.ie

That looks a bit more than severely damaged to me , utterly ****** seems to fit the picture better

 

[midlifecrisis]

Water on a lithium battery is not a good idea.

 

[rockits]

that Babycham was the height of sophistication

I can remember being 16-18 and working part time at ASDA, Southgate on a Saturday. We would walk up the high street to the White Hart for a little lunchtime tipple. Three lads would order 3 x Babychams as they were on the bottom shelf and we got an eyeful from the bar girl when she reached for them! We made sure we ordered one first......then the I'll have a Babycham second....then lastly the last....I'll have a Babycham. Horrible drinks but the view was worth it at the time