Sale or Return experience with a London based company

slay

Member
Messages
409
Not sure if most of you have had experience with companies offering Sale or Return service, just want to share my own.

I thought about using @dickygrace but it was just a little too far to bring the car over so decided to use a company located in London. Well, I am not sure about the forum rules on naming and shaming, so I would would leave the name of the company out, but I am sure Dicky knows which company i am referring to.

I saw a black 2016 Stradale with a low mileage back in Feb, and although I already had a great one owner 2014 example, I was obsessed and could not resist replacing it with the 2016 model - both in black but the 2016 example had all carbon fibre extras and the yellow brake callipers, with just 8000 miles on the clock.

So, I took my old Stradale to the London company on a Sale or Return basis before I picked up the “new” Stradale, and incidentally the mrs and my kids did not even notice the car in the garage was different for months !!

Long story short, I think I picked up the new Stradale probably 2 weeks before the Covid-19 lockdown, and my old Stradale was with the London based company 3 weeks before the Lockdown, I had zero communication from them until a month after the lockdown (and only after a few requests for asking updates).

Anyway, it was sold back in August and they did pay up very quickly and I never saw the contract of sale, as I thought they surely would not screw me given the “reputation” and the type of cars I’m their showroom. I then came across my car on pistonheads last week (yes, I still do look at listings of Stradale on pistonheads) and I contacted the seller and told him that he had bought my Stradale ( and had spent a huge chunk more to turn everything black/smoked. I then found out the dealer had under declare the value for which my car was sold for by £2K.

I don’t understand these businesses, why risking ruining your reputation and risk of legal actions for £2K? I am sure they were already making a healthy margin. I guess it all comes down to greed! Thinking that there is no chance for the sellers to somehow connect with the buyers. I doubt that I was the first one to be cheated this way. These companies selling special/exotic cars have ignored one very important fact, that they are not selling the mass produced daily runners... yes it is highly unlikely that I will ever talk to the person who has bought my Evoque or my Mercedes GLA, but not difficult For a car enthusiast to come across his/her Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini or McLaren!

Well, I have left a feedback for this company on google review to warn others. I am not sure how much you could trust the google review now, I decided to use their services because they had mostly positive reviews, and had a collection of cars that we’re worth probably 20 or 30 times of my Stradale. I guess all those fancy cars in the showroom does to translate to honesty and integrity.

Apart from Dicky that we all know and trust, has anyone actually come across any of these sale or return dealers in London area that can be trusted?
 

Scaf

Member
Messages
6,582
Sorry to hear of your experience, you should be able to trust a reputable busienss.
Personally I like to see these firms names and shamed, I imagine that you would need hard evidence (bill of sale) before going public to be certain there are no repercussions for you.
 

Swedish Paul

Member
Messages
1,811
I suppose one question is did you get what you wanted for it? I presume you agreed a sale price and they didn’t come back and say a lower offer has been made. I don’t know what is in the contract when they take a car on, do they pass on extra money if they make more? Not trying to antagonize.
 

RobinL

Member
Messages
456
The only question I would pose would be if a warranty was included in the sale? Possible that the London Co. included a £2k warranty in that sale price - which wouldn't be a declared value to you?
On the other hand if it was just a straight £2k difference then shameful tactics indeed!!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
 

Nayf

Member
Messages
2,751
Sorry to hear of your experience, you should be able to trust a reputable busienss.
Personally I like to see these firms names and shamed, I imagine that you would need hard evidence (bill of sale) before going public to be certain there are no repercussions for you.
Naming and shaming can be tricky for forums. Say if someone (call him bloke X) wanted to slag off a competitor or have a tit for tat revenge against a company (Company x) without foundation, it is the forum that is responsible for Bloke X’s posts as well as Bloke X. Most forums aren’t huge commercial enterprises and even if they were lawyers are expensive. They’re also run as a sideline, so investigating the truth of every complaint is a challenge. PistonHeads gets a lot of flak for the no shaming rule but given the traffic and sheer number of posts, it’s entirely unworkable to keep track of it all, and deeply expensive.
I’m surprised the 911 forums managed to do it with the Yorkshire three, but then they had a multiple weight of evidence through its users against the three firms in question. And by the end the firms had no money...

Even big established media companies can get the heeby jeebies even if they’re in the right. A certain well known Yorkshire dealership was shown up in court last year as a matter of public record, but still threatened legal action when this was to be reported elsewhere. Strangely the publication backed away from it. They weren’t even advertisers (!)
 

Zep

Moderator
Messages
9,283
I would suggest that you would be better off relating this experience after challenging the business in question.
 

JJbing

Member
Messages
445
Assuming it's the one up for £55k, a friend of mine is considering it as it's the right car (minus the rear lights), but he doesn't like the look of the advert as it looks "neglected".
 

slay

Member
Messages
409
Sorry to hear of your experience, you should be able to trust a reputable busienss.
Personally I like to see these firms names and shamed, I imagine that you would need hard evidence (bill of sale) before going public to be certain there are no repercussions for you.
I actually do, as I spoke to the buyer and he was not happy with them either, and he actually sent me the details of the payment he made, I think that was enough evidence there.
The guy who actually confirmed the sale and price actually called me, and he did not disagree with the Price difference, but was trying to explain his way out by claiming the additional 2K was to cover the detailing, preparation and warranty....which were already covered in the commission agreed up front.

so I think I have enough evidence I think.
 

slay

Member
Messages
409
Assuming it's the one up for £55k, a friend of mine is considering it as it's the right car (minus the rear lights), but he doesn't like the look of the advert as it looks "neglected".
Well, I have not seen the car after the modifications, but it was in pristine condition when I sold it, as it had everything it needed and Dale from Prestige Autoworks could provide the details if needed. Although I have not seen the changes made to the car, and while they are not to my taste, I certainly would not have called it “neglected”. I have to agree with you though, the seller could have done a better presented ad.

in any case, I would suggest your friend to have a look at the car, because the car is a lot better than how it is presented on the ad. Just my honest opinion, nothing in it for me.
 

slay

Member
Messages
409
I suppose one question is did you get what you wanted for it? I presume you agreed a sale price and they didn’t come back and say a lower offer has been made. I don’t know what is in the contract when they take a car on, do they pass on extra money if they make more? Not trying to antagonize.
Actually, they started off at a much higher price, and I was realistic knowing that they would not achieve that.

price was dropped 3 times and at the end I was trying to ask him to get 1k more than what was offered... he told me that he couldn’t when in fact he had 1k more than what i was asking. If this is not dishonesty then I don’t know what is. In addition, the contract was for the business to take a fixed commission for selling my car, it is irrelevant whether or not I was “happy” with what I got paid at the end.
 

slay

Member
Messages
409
The only question I would pose would be if a warranty was included in the sale? Possible that the London Co. included a £2k warranty in that sale price - which wouldn't be a declared value to you?
On the other hand if it was just a straight £2k difference then shameful tactics indeed!!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
No, warranty was already included in the commission when the SoR deal was agreed at the beginning...
 

dickygrace

www.richardgracecars.co.uk
Messages
7,339
@slay glad you managed to find out the sale price. I’ve viewed the car, it is certainly not neglected; it can be made into a good one but not easily, which is why I walked away. Needs a deep polish and a fair amount of difficult paintwork as all the plastics have been painted. It requires tints removing and aftermarket rear suspension removing but the owner has all the OEM parts. As some have said, naming the company is awkward for legal reasons. It’s fair to point out who it wasn’t, as many could jump to conclusions as it’s a Maserati in London; it wasn’t Nuvola.
 
Last edited:

Hawk13

Member
Messages
1,471
Sounds decidedly dodgy to me but I agree with your approach of not naming ... albeit that I also agree with Dicky that you should confirm who it wasn't.
 

mjheathcote

Centenary Club
Messages
9,038
On reading your post at first I feared it was another case of the car being sold, the company going bust, and you having not been paid!
Thank goodness this isn't the case!
 

dgmx5

Member
Messages
1,142
@slay , if the contract was that the London Co sell the car and that they will be paid £y to include commission and disbursements for the sale such as detailing, warranty etc and then they sell for £x but disclose they sold it for £x-2,000, then on the face of it they have made a fraudulent or neglugent misrepresentation to you, or are in breach of the terms of the contract.

As the sum involved is considered a small claim, I would suggest writing a letter before action explaining why you believe they have failed to pay over £2,000 as agreed in the contract, and give them 28 days to either pay or give their reasons why they consider they are entitled to retain the monies.

The advantage with a small claim is that legal costs are generally very limited as to what can be recovered, unless there is a clause in the contract where you indemnify the London Co for their costs if you bring an unsuccessful action against them.

There is no need for you to incur legal costs on such a matter.

If a claim is still necessary, it can be easily lodged through the Money Claim Online website. Feel free to PM me if you require any assistance.
 

Doctor Houx

Member
Messages
792
@slay , if the contract was that the London Co sell the car and that they will be paid £y to include commission and disbursements for the sale such as detailing, warranty etc and then they sell for £x but disclose they sold it for £x-2,000, then on the face of it they have made a fraudulent or neglugent misrepresentation to you, or are in breach of the terms of the contract.

As the sum involved is considered a small claim, I would suggest writing a letter before action explaining why you believe they have failed to pay over £2,000 as agreed in the contract, and give them 28 days to either pay or give their reasons why they consider they are entitled to retain the monies.

The advantage with a small claim is that legal costs are generally very limited as to what can be recovered, unless there is a clause in the contract where you indemnify the London Co for their costs if you bring an unsuccessful action against them.

There is no need for you to incur legal costs on such a matter.

If a claim is still necessary, it can be easily lodged through the Money Claim Online website. Feel free to PM me if you require any assistance.
Exactly right. As a commercial litigation and property lawyer I often point potential clients with small claims to the MCOL website. Cheap and easy process and provided you attach written proof of the claim such as the contract with the seller showing the agreed commission and proof of what the buyer paid the seller, you should be on safe ground here based on what I have read on this thread so far. Try a letter before action (email will do) to the seller telling them of your planned course of action with MCOL if you don’t get your money within say 7 days and that may be enough to take you seriously and cough up
 

dickygrace

www.richardgracecars.co.uk
Messages
7,339
I’m a keen “modder” myself but struggling to see £10k worth of spend, unless he’s repaired suspension arms, maybe a new set of tyres and clutch?

It’s not had a clutch, I couldn’t see where the £10k had gone either.