Let's get some facts straight - MANUAL TIPO 4200

[ravingfool]

I've had four Maseratis over a period of fifteen years and can confirm they are absolute rubbish.






(When the keyboard warriors read that the prices will crash, and I'll make it five )

I like cars which are conventionally 'unloved' and therefore economical to purchase; ideally with a hardcore of supporters that can be called upon for wisdom.

My coupe GT is a prime example.

I'd quite like a quattroporte in a few years too so as far as I'm concerned Maserati's general malaise at the moment suits me entirely.

There's a certain caché to the brand and lots of die hard fans but poor mainstream commercial success - perfect!

I haven't noticed the GT being talked down but think that sort of thing is almost natural, there aren't very many and people will have little experience plus the gearbox is not very good compared to modern equivalents from my experience - and to be clear, I'm very happy and absolutely did not want a CC.

Perhaps the box in other coupes is better than mine (mine could be due a rebuild or have some other fault, I'm still new to it) or perhaps it's a function of the state of the technology at the time that could handle the power but I've driven much nicer gearboxes although not many with the same power.

 

[Gazcw]

I don't sling mud for the sake of it

Ramp in post #5 hit the nail on the head. They have read the odd recent post here and there along with some legacy comments about manuals that has made their mind up that manuals are bad/overrated and they don't understand why... Think about it, this is a public forum which is frequented by a lot more people than just the usual suspects on the posters leaderboard.

Since I like a balanced debate the reasons someone might talk down a manual are as follows:

1. Poorly maintained examples are horrible to drive just like Cambiocorsa's. My car is an excellent example as it was a neglected thrashed car at only 52k miles and I have majorly overhauled it. My wife had not driven it for a few years and recently used it as a daily while the other car was being serviced. She used to say it's what she thought an old Lamborghini would feel like to drive, heavy clutch and a vague notchy gearbox... Now everything connected to the clutch and gear shifter has been renewed she described it as easy to drive as her VW Scirocco R. The clutch was heavy as the original thrust bearing was stiff in operation and the shifter mechanism which dangles exposed underneath the car was not serviced in 15 years... Forget the busted torque tube and gearbox input shaft bearing from some idiot ex owner likely doing burnouts in it. CC cars are vulnerable to set up issues and similar problems with the TB that makes them jerky and horrible to drive when neglected.
2. You don't like or can't drive a 3 pedal car, it's personal preference
3. As Safrane suggested someone could have commercial motivations to sway someone against a manual and into a CC that they or their friend happen to have for sale

In conclusion an individual could stumble accross posts made as a result of the above 3 points (and others I have missed) as a result think the manual 4200 is over hyped youtoob trash because of these expert opinions on SportsMaserati but it's all rather contrived surely?

I thought an owners perspective would be useful to help provide a more in depth accurate understanding on the manual 4200 and why it is awesome... I hope that is less harsh now.

I guess it depends what you are reading and the conclusions you make. I never considered a cc because of the multitude of potential issues that could arise and the dreaded clutch cost but everything fails at some point. I thought I would always want an auto but after test driving the mc, the experience totally changed my mind. I would still have a manual over it though.
And don't forget. I am driving the over the hill, not worth the money old shed Strad discussed on pistonheads. So I am clearly barking....

 

[Zep]

Would it be fair to say that, because there are so many more CC cars out there, that there are going to be more people saying that they like what they have got? A form of, to quote the @CatmanV2, confirmation bias rather than a desire to deceive? Still, if there is an imbalance, this thread should go some way to righting it.

I’ve personally never driven a manual 4200, just a manual 3200 (thanks @allandwf) so don’t have a frame of reference. The regularity with which posts about improving the shift on a CC suggests all is not rosy for some, and I would think those posts also appear for those looking.

That pistonheads article was, as you would expect, a load of tosh. But “Manuals are **** and CCs are awesome” not a view I’ve seen regularly or strongly expressed. Or am I missing something?

In any event, the time, effort and cash you have expended on your car is undoubtedly the reason it is so good to drive and that you have shared that that process here is brilliant and it a better place for it.

 

[Zep]

So I am clearly barking....

A good point well made

 

[Gazcw]

A good point well made

Woof. Off to stick a thin and crisp frozen hawaiian in the oven now.

 

[philw696]

Having worked for Maserati I have been lucky enough to drive them all apart from pre 80's in New Zealand.
Most cars there were low mileage garage queen's and I'm quite confident my 4200 cc that I took there with me was the highest mileage in the country.
The manual is a nice car to be for sure but the older I get I now prefer a nice ZF auto and it's trickery.
Nicest manual gearboxes I have had were BMW M Power especially the 5 speed in the Z3 M Roadster and the 3.0 M3 E36.
It's a good job we're all different and enjoy what's out there.

 

[safrane]

FIFTY does make a good point; there is plenty of model bashing on here which for the majority of us is 'banter' and we know many of the member personally. However, for the lay person who does not read between the lines ic could be seen as truth and quickly make an ill-informed judgement.

So long live all Maser's, esp the one you have.

 

[Vampyrebat]

After 6 years of ownership, frequenting this forum and getting thoroughly stuck in with this community I have come to the conclusion that there is quite a lot of sh!t talking about the manual Tipo 4200 on here and it seems to be spreading outside of this little corner of the Maserati community

So I think it is time to set a few things straight before anyone else gets the idea that these cars should be undervalued as they extremely rare prized possessions... There are a few key points to consider

1. The Coupe GT is faster accelerating than the Cambiocorsa because it is lighter; a skilled driver can get off the line quicker and shift gears faster than the F1 actuator. 0.2s faster to 60mph in standard form
2. The Coupe GT handles better than the Cambiocorsa because it is lighter and has a more even weight distribution without all of the F1 gubbins
3. The manual variant is more reliable than the F1 transmission - do I really need to explain this? How about the F1 relay or pump failing and stranding you in the outside lane of the motorway... Or remind me how much it costs to replace the non-serviceable actuator and all associated valves?
4. The manual variant does not require specialist software to set up (refering to PIS here)... It is relatively easy now but how much of a PITA will it be to get done in 10, 20, 30 years time when these cars are even more obscure?
5. Just down to numbers the manual variants are considerably rarer than Cambiocorsa's and notably there are half the amount of manual Coupes than Gransports in the UK and a truly minuscule number of Spyders... https://www.maseratilife.com/threads/maserati-4200-production-numbers.90546/
6. Based on point 5, collectors are buying up low milage manual variants as they hit the market. The Car Crowd is a very well publicised example of this

I'm sure the nay sayers will be along in a moment to object and say "my CC was better" or "it's no manual porker 911" and perhaps "the pedal box is a little tight". I'm sure it suits some people who just don't like manual cars or when you are angling for bragging rights at the pub saying you have a paddle shift transmission like Michael Schumacher's F1 car which is really sweet when it's set up right and expensive when it breaks makes you feel like Barry with the big wallet but let's not spread folk law and rumours about other people's cars.

You forgot.

7. Clutch ware is a lot better in the manual guise (approx. 10 - 15%) so in some respects cheaper to run!

 

[FIFTY]

Perhaps the box in other coupes is better than mine (mine could be due a rebuild or have some other fault, I'm still new to it) or perhaps it's a function of the state of the technology at the time that could handle the power but I've driven much nicer gearboxes although not many with the same power.

The gearbox can take a lot of abuse. It's the same unit out of the 360 - so far the only weaknesses I know of is the input shaft bearing getting worn as a result of a worn torque tube which is what happened to mine and I have been told that slamming the car into reverse while it is still moving forwards can strjp the reserve gear cones which are NLA - so be careful when going into reverse, make sure the car is stationary.

You are likely experiencing poor shifting because the mechanism needs servicing and/or the cables have stretched and need replacing.

I have photos of my gearbox rebuild which I'll post it in a separate thread, the internals are in remarkably good condition, no wear on the synchros at all.

 

[Ewan]

I much preferred my manual Ghibli to my auto Ghibli.
I much preferred my manual 3200 to my auto 3200.
I much preferred my manual QP IV Evo to my auto QP IV Evo.
I much preferred my DS (so manual, of sorts) QP V to my auto QP GTS.

But, I didn’t like my manual 4200 and changed it for a CC version. Just didn’t like the pedals or the gear linkage. To me, it simply wasn’t a particularly successful set-up. Maybe it was just that particular car, but it was brand new (this was back in 2004).

Anyway, each to there own, as we are all different.

 

[DaveT]

I have owned both a manual 4200 and several CC 4200s and Gransports.

I think between Fifty's various posts he has pretty much nailed the pros and cons of both.

While I personally enjoyed the CC box more I wouldn't talk down the manual which I liked when I had it.

 

[ravingfool]

The gearbox can take a lot of abuse. It's the same unit out of the 360 - so far the only weaknesses I know of is the input shaft bearing getting worn as a result of a worn torque tube which is what happened to mine and I have been told that slamming the car into reverse while it is still moving forwards can strjp the reserve gear cones which are NLA - so be careful when going into reverse, make sure the car is stationary.

You are likely experiencing poor shifting because the mechanism needs servicing and/or the cables have stretched and need replacing.

I have photos of my gearbox rebuild which I'll post it in a separate thread, the internals are in remarkably good condition, no wear on the synchros at all.

It runs well, but in my car selecting second gear is somewhat clunky whilst cold. The rest of the box changes smoothly (in fact a real joy in the higher gears) but low speed 1st/2nd changes with the box cold are not great.

As I say, may we'll need some work which I've not looked at yet. Would be really impressive if that we're sorted.

 

[Gazcw]

It runs well, but in my car selecting second gear is somewhat clunky whilst cold. The rest of the box changes smoothly (in fact a real joy in the higher gears) but low speed 1st/2nd changes with the box cold are not great.

As I say, may we'll need some work which I've not looked at yet. Would be really impressive if that we're sorted.

Certainly read about clunky 2nd gears when cold before. I imagine a good set up would help hugely. Cables obviously stretch overtime so making this part of a regular check should help I guess.

 

[FIFTY]

It runs well, but in my car selecting second gear is somewhat clunky whilst cold. The rest of the box changes smoothly (in fact a real joy in the higher gears) but low speed 1st/2nd changes with the box cold are not great.

As I say, may we'll need some work which I've not looked at yet. Would be really impressive if that we're sorted.

Certainly read about clunky 2nd gears when cold before. I imagine a good set up would help hugely. Cables obviously stretch overtime so making this part of a regular check should help I guess.

Let it warm up a bit longer on your drive before setting off

If you read the manual for the 4200 it says you can drive off straight away, no problem

But then read the manual for the F360 it says you have to let the engine and gearbox warm up for 10/15(?) minutes before setting off

It's the same gearbox! Even in neutral the gears are turning as long as you haven't got the clutch pedal pressed down so it will warm up when stationary.

Mine is notchy when cold as well even after being rebuilt.

 

[DaveT]

Certainly read about clunky 2nd gears when cold before. I imagine a good set up would help hugely. Cables obviously stretch overtime so making this part of a regular check should help I guess.

Yes I do remeber this being an issue on my 4200 manual when cold. No other issues apart from that though.

 

[Gazcw]

But then read the manual for the F360 it says you have to let the engine and gearbox warm up for 10/15(?) minutes before setting off

That's so the prancing horses don't get upset and leave. They are too highly strung.

 

[philw696]

I know when I had my 360 if I had let it warm up on the driveway my neighbors would have got well cheesed off with me.

 

[FIFTY]

I know when I had my 360 if I had let it warm up on the driveway my neighbors would have got well cheesed off with me.

Mine all have motorbikes with ASBO exhausts I don't bother closing the exhaust valves any more

 

[alfatwo]

Just out of interest how much weight difference is there between like for like same generation cars ?

Facelift 4200 is 10 kgs lighter than a 4200 Gransport for example.

I cant find anything that gives the actual weights for 4200cc vs 4200 GT in either facelift or pre facelift variants.

Parkers and the like show the same weight for both.

3200GT's are even lighter than both!

Dave

 

[alfatwo]

Certainly read about clunky 2nd gears when cold before. I imagine a good set up would help hugely. Cables obviously stretch overtime so making this part of a regular check should help I guess.

That's no different to any Ferrari manual car every built, you just need to let gearbox oil warm up. of course if the gearbox is not fixed to the engine and stuck out at the back it takes even longer!

Dave