Joining the electric car club

[Ewan]

With the war raging in Ukraine, we are in abnormal times for power production in the EU and UK. Take the figures from a year or so ago, and it all looks very different. As it is likely to again another year from now. As ever, so much is in which figures you look at, as two different sets of stats (both seemingly accurate) can provide very different pictures.

To make a real difference, let's get shipping moved over to MSAR fuel from Quadrise Fuels PLC. Why this hasn't taken off is beyond me. Seems like a no-brainer and something Governments should be forcing the shipping companies to adopt. And if they did, it would do wonders for the value of my shares in the company!!!

 

[Oneball]

That was because they replaced gas with coal generation due to war but also because it was winter. You have to look at a whole year.

 

[DLax69]

With the war raging in Ukraine, we are in abnormal times for power production in the EU and UK. Take the figures from a year or so ago, and it all looks very different. As it is likely to again another year from now. As ever, so much is in which figures you look at, as two different sets of stats (both seemingly accurate) can provide very different pictures.

To make a real difference, let's get shipping moved over to MSAR fuel from Quadrise Fuels PLC. Why this hasn't taken off is beyond me. Seems like a no-brainer and something Governments should be forcing the shipping companies to adopt. And if they did, it would do wonders for the value of my shares in the company!!!

Let's start a petition! (You have those, right?)

 

[P R]

Yes absolutely, you can pick numbers for any argument. The lack of Russian gas though was well predicted by Mr Trump in 2018 and no one listened.

 

[DLax69]

Yes absolutely, you can pick numbers for any argument. The lack of Russian gas though was well predicted by Mr Trump in 2018 and no one listened.

I think he actually said, "Russian escorts."

 

[lifes2short]

I think he actually said, "Russian escorts."

hope he was more specific

 

[Nayf]

Does it though? Where is the data that says CO2 per mile is greater for a BEV than an ICE? Everything I’ve seen says that based on the European average electric production BEVs produce less CO2 per mile than an ICE.

The figure is highly regional – not just country, but within each country. Across the whole of Europe it may be so, but within Germany itself, the C02 may be higher, depending on the source.

Ah, @P R has explained

 

[Oneball]

The figure is highly regional – not just country, but within each country. Across the whole of Europe it may be so, but within Germany itself, the C02 may be higher, depending on the source.

Ah, @P R has explained

So basically it’s not true that EVs produce more CO2 than ICEs unless you pick a winter month, in Germany, in the middle of a war with Russia for your power station CO2 figures.

To get an ICE equivalent you’d have to pick a supercharged Range Rover towing a 3.5t trailer over the alps in the middle of a blizzard.

 

[Nayf]

So basically it’s not true that EVs produce more CO2 than ICEs unless you pick a winter month, in Germany, in the middle of a war with Russia for your power station CO2 figures.

To get an ICE equivalent you’d have to pick a supercharged Range Rover towing a 3.5t trailer over the alps in the middle of a blizzard.

Not on average, no, across the whole of Europe. But people don't tend to live across the whole of Europe unless you're an international man of mystery. If purchasing a car for its eco credentials, it does rather matter if in your locale is more C02 heavy than others. As Ewan says, the figures may be completely different when Putin decides to stop rattling his sabre (or someone decides for him), but the problems of electricity supply will not go away even then. Nuclear power plants are not exactly like a pop-up pretzel shop (Germany has mothballed its), and renewables aren't reliable enough (yet) to sustain the entire grid.

 

[Oneball]

Not on average, no, across the whole of Europe. But people don't tend to live across the whole of Europe unless you're an international man of mystery. If purchasing a car for its eco credentials, it does rather matter if in your locale is more C02 heavy than others. As Ewan says, the figures may be completely different when Putin decides to stop rattling his sabre (or someone decides for him), but the problems of electricity supply will not go away even then. Nuclear power plants are not exactly like a pop-up pretzel shop (Germany has mothballed its), and renewables aren't reliable enough (yet) to sustain the entire grid.

Exactly my point, for everyone who doesn’t live in Germany in December 2022, BEVs produce less CO2 in use than an ICE.

 

[Nayf]

Exactly my point, for everyone who doesn’t live in Germany in December 2022, BEVs produce less CO2 in use than an ICE.

That's a very simplistic way of looking at a multi-faceted set of numbers. Germany is just one example, and the most noteworthy one due to its political choices to de-nuclearise. But you must also consider the other points in that average, such as Italy, Eastern Europe and other countries that were reliant on Russian gas. The average is brought down by the renewables in the Nordics and south-west. It's not just Germany that this applies to.
Even within Italy, the C02 varies north to south.

You also have to consider the broader figures behind the figures. Given countries are now competing over the same energy sources sans Russia, where are they buying that energy from, and are the C02 figures from source budgeted into their country's figures?
And then you get into the regions within countries. It's far too simplistic to define it by an EU average, as the CO2 production costs can vary from canton/region to canton/region.

 

[Nayf]

I'm not anti EV – they don't interest me as an enthusiast purchase and I don't have a use case to justify owning one as a daily – and in fact a good proportion of my income depends on me writing about them in the positive.

 

[Swedish Paul]

Not on average, no, across the whole of Europe. But people don't tend to live across the whole of Europe unless you're an international man of mystery. If purchasing a car for its eco credentials, it does rather matter if in your locale is more C02 heavy than others. As Ewan says, the figures may be completely different when Putin decides to stop rattling his sabre (or someone decides for him), but the problems of electricity supply will not go away even then. Nuclear power plants are not exactly like a pop-up pretzel shop (Germany has mothballed its), and renewables aren't reliable enough (yet) to sustain the entire grid.

It’s funny, as I thought about ev here in the frozen wastelands. Our electricity is produced in our region and it is 100% wind and hydro so can’t get much cleaner recharge than that. We have electric buses which wheel spin on the ice and snow so power delivery can be tricky. Problem is Stockholm is over 500km away, Denmark is 1200km. So it could take a few days just starting the summer vacation. And I do wonder about the cold in winter and how it affects the batteries.

 

[Nayf]

It’s funny, as I thought about ev here in the frozen wastelands. Our electricity is produced in our region and it is 100% wind and hydro so can’t get much cleaner recharge than that. We have electric buses which wheel spin on the ice and snow so power delivery can be tricky. Problem is Stockholm is over 500km away, Denmark is 1200km. So it could take a few days just starting the summer vacation. And I do wonder about the cold in winter and how it affects the batteries.

The Nordics basically give a free pass to the rest of Europe, basically.

Batteries are affected by cold due to the way the batteries work; reduced range. The Nordics do, generally, have a much better infrastructure for EV use as they've been at it for longer.

 

[Oneball]

That's a very simplistic way of looking at a multi-faceted set of numbers. Germany is just one example, and the most noteworthy one due to its political choices to de-nuclearise. But you must also consider the other points in that average, such as Italy, Eastern Europe and other countries that were reliant on Russian gas. The average is brought down by the renewables in the Nordics and south-west. It's not just Germany that this applies to.
Even within Italy, the C02 varies north to south.

You also have to consider the broader figures behind the figures. Given countries are now competing over the same energy sources sans Russia, where are they buying that energy from, and are the C02 figures from source budgeted into their country's figures?
And then you get into the regions within countries. It's far too simplistic to define it by an EU average, as the CO2 production costs can vary from canton/region to canton/region.

That’s exactly what I was getting at. You can’t just pick German electricity generation to make a point that EVs are bad.

 

[Nayf]

That’s exactly what I was getting at. You can’t just pick German electricity generation to make a point that EVs are bad.

But you also can't use a European average to say that EVs are 'good' either...

 

[Tallman]

Yes maybe average. In December Germany was running at around 700gCO2/MW/h

That roughly translates as 126gCO2/km based on an average of 18kW/h for an "average" car
Electric car efficiency explained: miles per kWh | BuyaCar

Ave CO2 in EU from ICE is 116g

I come to different figures. According to carbonfootprint.com, for all of 2021, German co2 emission per KWh produced was 339gr per KWh. Usage/Economy of 18KWh/100km for an average EV then results in emission of 339*18/100=61gr/km co2

If your figure of 116gr/km co2 for ICE is correct that is double the amount EV’s “emit”. For comparison:

UK electricity production emits 230gr/KWh, so it would work out at 41gr/km or nearly 1/3rd of an average ICE car.
French electricity production emits 51gr/KWh which works out at only 9gr/km, less than 1/10th of an average ICE car.

In Europe, only Cyprus, Poland and Serbia produce electricity dirty enough that ICE’s emit marginally less than EV’s.

 

[Oneball]

But you also can't use a European average to say that EVs are 'good' either...

Looking at the data for the following individual countries over a 12 month period; UK, France, Spain, Portugal, Norway, Sweden, Germany, Italy, Holland. In every single one EVs produce less CO2 per mile than ICE.

I’m not an EV fan but if you’re going to argue against them use real arguments

 

[DLax69]

Looking at the data for the following individual countries over a 12 month period; UK, France, Spain, Portugal, Norway, Sweden, Germany, Italy, Holland. In every single one EVs produce less CO2 per mile than ICE.

I’m not an EV fan but if you’re going to argue against them use real arguments

Well, parts of Italy still use horses and carts (my father was born in Calabria!).

I don't know this, and have no dog in this fight (except to hope that the same technology that powers my leaf blower also isn't also the sole technology available to take my geriatric a$$ to Sunday dinner two score hence)...but what about the cost to build an EV/ship an EV to point of sale vs. ICE cars? That also needs to be part of the math, correct?

Also...am now going to the "Differences" thread to post a question about "man maths." Thanks.

 

[P R]

Looking at the data for the following individual countries over a 12 month period; UK, France, Spain, Portugal, Norway, Sweden, Germany, Italy, Holland. In every single one EVs produce less CO2 per mile than ICE.

I’m not an EV fan but if you’re going to argue against them use real arguments

Yes, the argument I used was in December (first half), German electricity generation meant 126gCO2.

The point I was making (badly it seems ) is that even ignoring all the energy density of making batteries etc on the fueling alone there are times in the biggest economy in Europe where it is more carbon dense to move an electric car. Given that we can't rely on Russian gas (and never should have), the lack of wind at times etc. tells me theres no need for the hysteric banning of ICEs. Yes they will eventually be replaced, but at a time when electricity is much greener, and there is infrastructure in place to enable enough charging points.