Electric Cars

[rockits]

I got my solar panels for free, previous buyer ordered them and pulled out and I reaped the benefit...

We got our solar panels for free as well as inherited them with the house when we moved in 5 years ago. Pays for 75% of our leccy bill so all good.

Obviously tech generally gets cheaper and more reliable over time with economies of scale. Also better materials and manufacturing processes will be developed over this time. The key is I guess to make sure they are around long enough and also can be repaired or replaced but recycled to limit waste or their impact or effectiveness is reduced.

 

[Wack61]

Wonder how much energy from manufacturer and installation of a full size wind turbine, including the 100s of tones for the concrete base is.

How long until it repays that debt to the environment.

I alao read that it takes >15years for solar panels to reach payback... and they last... c15 years.

Yet more ways to spend money and fill China's coffers.

I sold a petrol garden shredder to a guy in scotland , he paid me to deliver it
When I got to his house it was in a beautiful location with a lot of land overlooking rolling hills

Except there were 20+ turbines about 3 miles away

I commented on them which set him off

He was an environmental lecturer at a university and had undertaken a study on the impact and running costs of them

He said they will never generate enough electricity to cover the cost of building, erecting and maintaining them, as they're mechanical and will wear and need parts I see his point .

But all these schemes provide jobs in areas there's little work so at least that's something

 

[Wack61]

We got our solar panels for free as well as inherited them with the house when we moved in 5 years ago. Pays for 75% of our leccy bill so all good.

Obviously tech generally gets cheaper and more reliable over time with economies of scale. Also better materials and manufacturing processes will be developed over this time. The key is I guess to make sure they are around long enough and also can be repaired or replaced but recycled to limit waste or their impact or effectiveness is reduced.

Aren't solar panels sold on the basis you'll be getting a rebate by selling surplus power to the national grid.
How can that happen if you're not running at 101% plus

 

[GeoffCapes]

I didn't know that I thought Elon invented them. Are they expensive?

Elon invents F*ck all! Copies others ideas. Bit like that Dyson fella. He waits for the patent to expire on products then repackages it as his own.
Which in itself is clever.

With regards to roof tile solar panels, to be honest you're best off having them installed when the house is being built or renovated.
They aren't as efficient as the standard panel as they are a much smaller panel and there are multiples of them.
Which in itself suggests they are quite a bit more expensive, which they are.

The only situation where I can see them being more worthwhile is if money is no object, and you want the roof to look as close to a 'normal' roof as possible.
Otherwise, stick with the standard ones.

The reason they were installed on my roof and others around us is that they were used to get BREAM points and so the council would pass planning.
Once houses were built, the rest get the standard panels as you can't half build an estate.

 

[GeoffCapes]

Wonder how much energy from manufacturer and installation of a full size wind turbine, including the 100s of tones for the concrete base is.

How long until it repays that debt to the environment.

I alao read that it takes >15years for solar panels to reach payback... and they last... c15 years.

Yet more ways to spend money and fill China's coffers.

I sold a petrol garden shredder to a guy in scotland , he paid me to deliver it
When I got to his house it was in a beautiful location with a lot of land overlooking rolling hills

Except there were 20+ turbines about 3 miles away

I commented on them which set him off

He was an environmental lecturer at a university and had undertaken a study on the impact and running costs of them

He said they will never generate enough electricity to cover the cost of building, erecting and maintaining them, as they're mechanical and will wear and need parts I see his point .

But all these schemes provide jobs in areas there's little work so at least that's something

A useless bit of info I learned when I was in insurance as the company I worked for was the largest wind turbine insurer at Lloyds, but is very relevant now about wind turbines, particularly the ones at sea.

All wind turbines can only operate in a band of over 15mph and under 45mph winds.
Any slower than 15mph and they won't turn and therefore won't generate electricity.
Over 45mph winds and the gearbox in the turbine will destroy itself.

The return on investment for an offshore wind turbine is 23 years.
The life span of a turbine is 'up to' 20 years.
Let that sink in. The UK Government & the EU is actually losing money in subsidies for our offshore wind generation.
Obviously when we leave the EU half of that subsidy goes. And your energy costs go up even more.

In summary the wind turbines they are putting up everywhere offshore, do not actually pay for themselves. At the moment.
I believe the magical break even figure would be if electricity prices go to circa 20p kWh by half way through the life cycle of the turbine.

So the majority are past half way, and commercial electricity prices are around 14-14.5p kWh currently. So are unlikely to pay for themselves.

Green washing anyone?

 

[lifes2short]

A useless bit of info I learned when I was in insurance as the company I worked for was the largest wind turbine insurer at Lloyds, but is very relevant now about wind turbines, particularly the ones at sea.

All wind turbines can only operate in a band of over 15mph and under 45mph winds.
Any slower than 15mph and they won't turn and therefore won't generate electricity.
Over 45mph winds and the gearbox in the turbine will destroy itself.

The return on investment for an offshore wind turbine is 23 years.
The life span of a turbine is 'up to' 20 years.
Let that sink in. The UK Government & the EU is actually losing money in subsidies for our offshore wind generation.
Obviously when we leave the EU half of that subsidy goes. And your energy costs go up even more.

In summary the wind turbines they are putting up everywhere offshore, do not actually pay for themselves. At the moment.
I believe the magical break even figure would be if electricity prices go to circa 20p kWh by half way through the life cycle of the turbine.

So the majority are past half way, and commercial electricity prices are around 14-14.5p kWh currently. So are unlikely to pay for themselves.

Green washing anyone?

sounds like it's all a big con to me and someone is making a sh1t load of money out of this nonsense!

 

[GeoffCapes]

Aren't solar panels sold on the basis you'll be getting a rebate by selling surplus power to the national grid.
How can that happen if you're not running at 101% plus

All electricity your panels actually generate goes straight into the grid.
You just get the equivalent back as free electricity.

In other words the electricity you generate is sold to someone at a much higher rate than you are paying, and your FiT provider makes a profit on the difference of what energy is 'sold' back to you. Weird eh?

The weirdest thing I found out a few years ago when we did some work for a Biomass power station is that the electricity the power station generates CANNOT be used to power that power station. They have to buy their electricity from the grid just like everyone else!
Now that is stupid!

And that is the same with ALL power stations. I dread to think what the leccy bill for somewhere like Sellafield is!

 

[GeoffCapes]

sounds like it's all a big con to me and someone is making a **** load of money out of this nonsense!

Madness isn't it?

 

[daverichardson]

We have never had a coherent long term energy strategy - ever
We stumbled across coal and used it
We stumbled across oil and gas and used them
There is no plan like a lot of things
Any government that presides over prolonged power black out will not last long
I think there will never be a profitable way towards Green energy when ALL costs are taken into account.
The costs get passed on to the next generation

 

[lifes2short]

I think there will never be a profitable way towards Green energy when ALL costs are taken into account.

 

[GeoffCapes]

We have never had a coherent long term energy strategy - ever
We stumbled across coal and used it
We stumbled across oil and gas and used them
There is no plan like a lot of things
Any government that presides over prolonged power black out will not last long
I think there will never be a profitable way towards Green energy when ALL costs are taken into account.
The costs get passed on to the next generation

Whilst 50% of energy generation in the UK is by gas then you can totally discount any chance of the UK producing 100% 'green' energy.
Replacing that is estimated to cost something like 50 trillion pounds.

So it won't happen in our lifetimes.

 

[Dan!]

Excellent a thread about solar panels.

Couple of things; I'm amazed at the lack of knowledge and understanding around solar from people that I respect the opinions of on here. Secondly, if this is the level of knowledge and understanding of intelligent people, it's no wonder that the majority of the general public doesn't get it.

Solar panels are the most efficient they have ever been. In the 20+ years that I've been in the renewables sector I've seen solar go from little more than a radiator painted black with washing machine hoses attached to it (SolarTwin) to the norm being 300wp panels with 400wp ones about to be launched on to the market.

Some classic myths debunked:
1. EV fast chargers are £10k. No they're not, try less than €700

ev fast charger - Google Shopping

www.google.com

2. They take 20+ years to pay for themselves. No they don't. If a £10k system saved you £500 a year (forget feed in tariffs, which further accelerate the process) then how long would it take to pay for itself.... The answer is not 20 years. The answer is in fact closer to 12 years depending on the rate of fuel inflation, given that it's been running at an average of 10% per year for the last 20 years or so it's fair to assume that the projected rate will be the same/similar/more. It won't be less. So if the cost of fuel goes up quicker, the system pays for itself quicker.

3. All the electric generated by PV goes to the grid and you then benefit from cheap electric. OMG no.
A simple export meter will show you how much is exported. And with a properly sized system and battery, very little will be exported.

 

[lifes2short]

Couple of things; I'm amazed at the lack of knowledge and understanding around solar from people that I respect the opinions of on here. Secondly, if this is the level of knowledge and understanding of intelligent people

steady on old chap, I never said at anytime I was intelligent, I work extremely hard to stay stupid

 

[Wack61]

I now own a yellow car , if I don't wash it for a week it develops a black haze that washes off easily with a sponge but doesn't come off with a hose so unlikely to be washed off by rain on a solar panel

If they're not cleaned regularly does the output drop significantly

steady on old chap, I never said at anytime I was intelligent, I work extremely hard to stay stupid

Nobody ever respected anything I said so he must've been talking about you

 

[Wanderer]

And that is the same with ALL power stations. I dread to think what the leccy bill for somewhere like Sellafield is!

Sellafield isn't a power station, it's a fuel reprocessing facility. Actually there was a power station next door (Calder Hall) that was originally purposed to provide the electricity for Sellafield (and plut. for MOD) but that's being decommed now.....

 

[GeoffCapes]

Sellafield isn't a power station, it's a fuel reprocessing facility. Actually there was a power station next door (Calder Hall) that was originally purposed to provide the electricity for Sellafield (and plut. for MOD) but that's being decommed now.....

Calder Hall. But you get my point.

 

[lifes2short]

Nobody ever respected anything I said so he must've been talking about you

 

[lifes2short]

popped over to JCB this morning for some spare parts and spotted this, wouldn't give it long before operator gets p1ssed off with having to charge it especially if in middle of job

 

[Gazcw]

popped over to JCB this morning for some spare parts and spotted this, wouldn't give it long before operator gets p1ssed off with having to charge it especially if in middle of job

View attachment 57920

Looks abandoned. Flat battery?

 

[Dan!]

If they're not cleaned regularly does the output drop significantly

In standard domestic environment a wash once a year from the window cleaner with a brush on a stick will do.

If a house is under a flight path then sticky residue may form leading to the need for more regular cleaning.

If panels are under a TV Ariel then the local birdlife is likely to redecorate those panels. If the panels are not optimised, allowing them to work independently, then the whole system will be effected by one or two panels being covered in guano. In this situation regular cleaning is required, as is relocation of the Ariel and the installer should be shot.

 

[midlifecrisis]

PV are also useful for getting power to places where its difficult to install a cable or the volts drop make it too expensive. Road signs for example. I've dabbled with PV myself and even just charging phones or powering low current items such as the BT WiFi box do reduce the bills.

I also need to recommission the solar hot water system fitted to my roof as raising the temperature of the water from cold to lukewarm will reduce the gas demand to raise it further.

Every little bit helps...