Defacing Statues

MarkMas

MarkMas

Chief pedant
Messages
8,945
Goodfella said:
LxHMfTc.jpg
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Well, I was trying to make a subtle distinction here, which you have somewhat erased with the red lines. I do not feel guilty about my genes, which I just happen to have and which are not my responsibility. But I do feel a bit guilty that (having gotten these genes by chance), I have not really used them as fruitfully as I might have, whether to enrich myself or to 'do good'. You could, I suppose, collapse that into "You feel guilty about your genes." but its an unhelpful simplification of what I was trying to say.

(But, by the way, I think even that guilt is a bit illogical, since (as a determinist) I don't really think that, in a pure logical sense, anyone is actually responsible for their actions, as there is no such thing as 'free will'. But I fully accept that 'free will' and personal responsibility are very necessary fictions to allow individual self-motivation and social groups to operate.)

It is the same as, I don't feel guilty about the plain fact that I am a white man, lucky enough to have been born in a civilised fragment of the world, and into a well-off family, but I do recognise that this bit of luck has given me enormous advantages over others not so lucky. So I try not to whine if someone says (absurdly) that I should feel guilty, and I try to recognise that I did not get where I am (just) through my own wonderful talents, and that other people might need a bit of a helping hand. Frankly, I do the absolute minimum of that helping, but at least I try a little bit.
 
Last edited:
MarkMas

MarkMas

Chief pedant
Messages
8,945
Wattie

Wattie

Member
Messages
8,640
MarkMas said:
Yeah, a twitter headline doesn't really do it for me, I'm afraid.

This news report, below, says that the Seattle Police Chief says that the time taken for police to respond to calls is up by 300% (from 5 minutes to 18 minutes) because they closed the police station. Maybe that is what is being confused. https://komonews.com/news/local/best-spd-response-times-have-tripled-since-loss-of-east-precinct
Click to expand...
Nor me but Fortunately for you and I there’s No need to be afraid, we don’t live there.
300% increase in crime or a 300% increase in the time taken to respond to crime....splitting hairs really if you’re on the end of it.
Bottom line is it was better when there was some law enforcement, the majority of which was good.
 
GeoffCapes

GeoffCapes

Member
Messages
14,000
MarkMas said:
Well, I was trying to make a subtle distinction here, which you have somewhat erased with the red lines. I do not feel guilty about my genes, which I just happen to have and which are not my responsibility. But I do feel a bit guilty that (having gotten these genes by chance), I have not really used them as fruitfully as I might have, whether to enrich myself or to 'do good'. You could, I suppose, collapse that into "You feel guilty about your genes." but its an unhelpful simplification of what I was trying to say.

(But, by the way, I think even that guilt is a bit illogical, since (as a determinist) I don't really think that, in a pure logical sense, anyone is actually responsible for their actions, as there is no such thing as 'free will'. But I fully accept that 'free will' and personal responsibility are very necessary fictions to allow individual self-motivation and social groups to operate.)

It is the same as, I don't feel guilty about the plain fact that I am a white man, lucky enough to have been born in a civilised fragment of the world, and into a well-off family, but I do recognise that this bit of luck has given me enormous advantages over others not so lucky. So I try not to whine if someone says (absurdly) that I should feel guilty, and I try to recognise that I did not get where I am (just) through my own wonderful talents, and that other people might need a bit of a helping hand. Frankly, I do the absolute minimum of that helping, but at least I try a little bit.
Click to expand...

What an absurd post.

Basically what you are saying is because you are white you should be someone who should "do good" and that
"I try to recognise that I did not get where I am (just) through my own wonderful talents, and that other people might need a bit of a helping hand. Frankly, I do the absolute minimum of that helping, but at least I try a little bit."

Well, as an example, I wasn't born into a wealthy family, and I got to where I am through my own hard work.
At one point almost 9 years ago, I was almost bankrupt, almost homeless, and suicidal.

Did I sit on my backside feeling sorry for myself (yes for a bit) and then blame others for my predicament (yes, for a bit, as they were valid) but then I decided I didn't want to top myself, and that if I wanted something out of this life that was dealing me a shite hand I had to get off my backside and do something about it.

9 years later I've never been so happy. I have a gorgeous wife and son, I earn a decent living and we're having a lovely family home built for us.

No one gave me a helping hand, no one gave me a pot of cash to get started, everything I have done since then has been down to my own hard work.
And it's not because of the colour of my skin, as most of what I do starts with phone calls and emails. So colour is irrelevant.

The lesson I learnt over this time is that you get out of life what you put in. Life is tough, so if you're not prepared to work for something don't expect any favours.
 
Goodfella

Goodfella

Member
Messages
735
MarkMas said:
Well, I was trying to make a subtle distinction here, which you have somewhat erased with the red lines. I do not feel guilty about my genes, which I just happen to have and which are not my responsibility. But I do feel a bit guilty that (having gotten these genes by chance), I have not really used them as fruitfully as I might have, whether to enrich myself or to 'do good'. You could, I suppose, collapse that into "You feel guilty about your genes." but its an unhelpful simplification of what I was trying to say.

(But, by the way, I think even that guilt is a bit illogical, since (as a determinist) I don't really think that, in a pure logical sense, anyone is actually responsible for their actions, as there is no such thing as 'free will'. But I fully accept that 'free will' and personal responsibility are very necessary fictions to allow individual self-motivation and social groups to operate.)

It is the same as, I don't feel guilty about the plain fact that I am a white man, lucky enough to have been born in a civilised fragment of the world, and into a well-off family, but I do recognise that this bit of luck has given me enormous advantages over others not so lucky. So I try not to whine if someone says (absurdly) that I should feel guilty, and I try to recognise that I did not get where I am (just) through my own wonderful talents, and that other people might need a bit of a helping hand. Frankly, I do the absolute minimum of that helping, but at least I try a little bit.
Click to expand...

Why are you searching through my old posts (Weird..) and what has the post you have attached got to do with anything?
 
lifes2short

lifes2short

Member
Messages
5,834
GeoffCapes said:
What an absurd post.

Basically what you are saying is because you are white you should be someone who should "do good" and that
"I try to recognise that I did not get where I am (just) through my own wonderful talents, and that other people might need a bit of a helping hand. Frankly, I do the absolute minimum of that helping, but at least I try a little bit."

Well, as an example, I wasn't born into a wealthy family, and I got to where I am through my own hard work.
At one point almost 9 years ago, I was almost bankrupt, almost homeless, and suicidal.

Did I sit on my backside feeling sorry for myself (yes for a bit) and then blame others for my predicament (yes, for a bit, as they were valid) but then I decided I didn't want to top myself, and that if I wanted something out of this life that was dealing me a shite hand I had to get off my backside and do something about it.

9 years later I've never been so happy. I have a gorgeous wife and son, I earn a decent living and we're having a lovely family home built for us.

No one gave me a helping hand, no one gave me a pot of cash to get started, everything I have done since then has been down to my own hard work.
And it's not because of the colour of my skin, as most of what I do starts with phone calls and emails. So colour is irrelevant.

The lesson I learnt over this time is that you get out of life what you put in. Life is tough, so if you're not prepared to work for something don't expect any favours.
Click to expand...

that requires some major respect in my book :thumb3: , too many silver spoons in mouth
 
M

MartyG

New Member
Messages
14
GeoffCapes said:
What an absurd post.

Basically what you are saying is because you are white you should be someone who should "do good" and that
"I try to recognise that I did not get where I am (just) through my own wonderful talents, and that other people might need a bit of a helping hand. Frankly, I do the absolute minimum of that helping, but at least I try a little bit."

Well, as an example, I wasn't born into a wealthy family, and I got to where I am through my own hard work.
At one point almost 9 years ago, I was almost bankrupt, almost homeless, and suicidal.

Did I sit on my backside feeling sorry for myself (yes for a bit) and then blame others for my predicament (yes, for a bit, as they were valid) but then I decided I didn't want to top myself, and that if I wanted something out of this life that was dealing me a shite hand I had to get off my backside and do something about it.

9 years later I've never been so happy. I have a gorgeous wife and son, I earn a decent living and we're having a lovely family home built for us.

No one gave me a helping hand, no one gave me a pot of cash to get started, everything I have done since then has been down to my own hard work.
And it's not because of the colour of my skin, as most of what I do starts with phone calls and emails. So colour is irrelevant.

The lesson I learnt over this time is that you get out of life what you put in. Life is tough, so if you're not prepared to work for something don't expect any favours.
Click to expand...
Absolutely spot on, there are too many people just expect things to be given to them these days. I come from a traditional working class family, went to a run of the mill secondary school and worked hard to get where I am today. I am by no means a millionaire or indeed close to being one but have an amazing family, nice house, nice car and enjoy 2 or 3 holidays a year.
I went to school with a lot of people from the same background as me but they are now sitting in their council house and their career to date has been the benefits system. Nearly every one of them blame the system, working class discrimination and no opportunities. Every one of them is white and every one of them had the exact same education and opportunities as I had.
 
Felonious Crud

Felonious Crud

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
21,187
GeoffCapes said:
What an absurd post.

Basically what you are saying is because you are white you should be someone who should "do good" and that
"I try to recognise that I did not get where I am (just) through my own wonderful talents, and that other people might need a bit of a helping hand. Frankly, I do the absolute minimum of that helping, but at least I try a little bit."

Well, as an example, I wasn't born into a wealthy family, and I got to where I am through my own hard work.
At one point almost 9 years ago, I was almost bankrupt, almost homeless, and suicidal.

Did I sit on my backside feeling sorry for myself (yes for a bit) and then blame others for my predicament (yes, for a bit, as they were valid) but then I decided I didn't want to top myself, and that if I wanted something out of this life that was dealing me a shite hand I had to get off my backside and do something about it.

9 years later I've never been so happy. I have a gorgeous wife and son, I earn a decent living and we're having a lovely family home built for us.

No one gave me a helping hand, no one gave me a pot of cash to get started, everything I have done since then has been down to my own hard work.
And it's not because of the colour of my skin, as most of what I do starts with phone calls and emails. So colour is irrelevant.

The lesson I learnt over this time is that you get out of life what you put in. Life is tough, so if you're not prepared to work for something don't expect any favours.
Click to expand...

I don't think your post and that of MarkMas are incompatible, Mark. To my simple mind, your positions coexist quite happily.

Anyway, I heard that the Colston statue chucked in the river was just a street entertainer who refused to come out of character. Anyone else heard that?

OK, carry on the squabbling, As you were. Have fun. I'm off to find a car-related thread (there are loads on Pistonheads if you can't find one here, by the way), and then back to work for some healthy debate on various topics that will ultimately have a positive impact on the people involved.
 
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