Remaps.......

davy83

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I will check tonight (and I am only talking about the 3200 here) But I am almost certain the description in the workshop manual of how the ECU controls ignition timing states that yes it does retard ignition to prevent knock, but it also tries to put i back again, so the ECU is constantly adjusting to your fuel and the condition of your car. It take a few days to adjust I think, as its a gentle mapping process. I have noticed references to dealers using the proper tools can reset the mapping process after major work to O2 or knock sensors to make the system start a new map. I will see if i can get the section form the manual and post it.
 

hodroyd

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14,150
Davy,
I agree, the ECU does have a part to play and usually contains a few variable engine maps within memory. The ECU will adjust such as timing to compensate for knock at high, or low revs, which you would normally get with a lower octane fuel more than a high octane, this has to affect engine performance if the timing is retarded..!!
We all know about the learning curve of the ECU and how it adapts to the drivers style over use, this means it learns and adjusts..!!
 
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CatmanV2

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48,948
I'd have expected knock prevention measures be instant. Saab have been managing knock in real time since 1982. Timing is dynamic, and adjusted instantly for things like RPM. Mixture richness and throttle opening are also controlled directly. No idea if the 3200s can drop boost at the whim of the ECU.

While I can understand that the parameters of *how* precisely the engine responds to knock may be learned, I'd be quite surprised if the ECU permitted knock on a regular basis.

I reserve the right to be completely wrong :)


C
 

hodroyd

Member
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14,150
Reaction to such as knock are pretty instant from the ECU, otherwise you could sustain engine damage over time. The ECU is there to react and as it's name, control the engine. So it will react to changes and adjust as necessary..!! I think the ECU in the 3200 can drop boost through the boost dump valve. I had a knock sensor issue on the AC at one point and the ECU just would not allow high engine revs..!!
 

Randy

Junior Member
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36
Reaction to such as knock are pretty instant from the ECU, otherwise you could sustain engine damage over time. The ECU is there to react and as it's name, control the engine. So it will react to changes and adjust as necessary..!! I think the ECU in the 3200 can drop boost through the boost dump valve. I had a knock sensor issue on the AC at one point and the ECU just would not allow high engine revs..!!

Different ECU's have different hardware and strategies when it come's to seeing and controlling knock. Early knock control sensors were fitted to some sort of resonator that would feed to a knock counter which would trip a hard cut after a certain number of counts. More modern ECU's have far, far better setups although I'm yet to see one that will intentionally run an engine into knock and then go back from there and, TBO, its a stupid assumption to think that the right ignition advance is just before the knock threshold.
 

hodroyd

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14,150
Different ECU's have different hardware and strategies when it come's to seeing and controlling knock. Early knock control sensors were fitted to some sort of resonator that would feed to a knock counter which would trip a hard cut after a certain number of counts. More modern ECU's have far, far better setups although I'm yet to see one that will intentionally run an engine into knock and then go back from there and, TBO, its a stupid assumption to think that the right ignition advance is just before the knock threshold.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say..??
 

Randy

Junior Member
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36
In my experience in the world of Honda's, most cars leave the factory with them leaving a fair bit of room for improvement. They run rich, and arnt set up to give their full potential, more a trimmed back factory level of potential. Hondas were easy to tune, Plug a laptop with a piece of equipment called flashpro and let your tuner do its magic on the dyno. A stock type r would produce anywhere from 197bhp to around 210. A simple remap changing AFR values, cutting some ignition, leaning out the fuel ect would produce around 225 on some. Nothing unsafe, just readjusting values that have been set up poorly by the factory on the ecu.

The same could easily be done to our masers if you had the hardware to map your ecu. Id have no doubt DMS know what theyre doing, a smooth linear increased power delivery and increased throttle response with improved fuel economy is a basic thing to be able to achieve in the tuning world. I wouldnt be surprised if 450hp at the flywheel could be produced seeing as at stock they produce an advertised 390bhp which like any engine means its lowest value as you cant advertise a car to have 410bhp and when dynod actually produces a lot less. So they go with the lowest possible outcome, as all engines differ slightly.

If i was bothered about figures (which with the maser im not to be honest) then id go have a remap without doubt but i wouldnt pay more than about 400 quid for perhaps 2 hours on the dyno of tweaking

I spent many years playing with K20's in the back of Elises. Yes, you can get plenty of extra power from a K20 but to do this you need to modify the hardware (very responsive to exhausts, intakes, plenums) and then tune to the extra head room given by the hardware change. Honda world is very lucky to have the 'K-pro" ECU which was a kind of back door route into the OEM calibration software and very unique to Honda.
 

alfatwo

Member
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5,517
The way I always thought about nornal 95 octane fuel versus 98 or higher, 105 is still available at some race circiuts, is the way it burns and gives off more energy hence more of an effecient cumbustion process

Forced induction engines like our old 3200's are always the best at getting more BHP from high octane fuels with average boost pressures than the normal asperated versions

Dave
 
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Tim82

New Member
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40
I spent many years playing with K20's in the back of Elises. Yes, you can get plenty of extra power from a K20 but to do this you need to modify the hardware (very responsive to exhausts, intakes, plenums) and then tune to the extra head room given by the hardware change. Honda world is very lucky to have the 'K-pro" ECU which was a kind of back door route into the OEM calibration software and very unique to Honda.

Agreed, even more recent with the FN2 models where we keep the standard oem ECU and just use Hondata Flashpro and away you go, Save your map and tweak whenever you make a hardware change such as intake or exhaust manifold, catback, air intake, cams, throttle body and so on. Even on a standard car producing 200bhp with no changes to hardware and a proper tune on the dyno and you can gain 20bhp and some torque, i imagine the Maser's would be the same, just a shame there's no easy to source way of accessing the ECU otherwise id take it to TDI North and let them have a play and see what figures we could get the V8 reaching, with making it more economical at the same time no doubt.
 

CatmanV2

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48,948
The way I always thought about nornal 95 octane fuel versus 98 or higher, 105 is still available at some race circiuts, is the way it burns and gives off more energy hence more of an effecient cumbustion process

Octane has nothing to do with the amount of energy a fuel gives off when it burns. It means you can run higher compression, which makes the *engine* more efficient but just burning (like in a saucer) a gallon of 95 will release the same amount of energy as a gallon of 105.

Too be totally accurate, there may be a *slight* difference caused by the different energy values of the additives. For example, if ethanol were to be used to *increase* the octane rating of a fuel, that fuel would have a *lower* energy content than the un-adulterated petrol.

C
 

Tim82

New Member
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40
The octane rating refers to the fuel's resistance to pre-ignition (knock) High-octane fuel doesn't neccessarily contain any more energy than regular, it allows the engine to produce more power by running improved boost/mixture/timing settings. Any car with a knock sensor (if the compression ratio is high enough in the first place) should be able to benefit from higher octane fuel, as the ECU can monitor what's happening and optimise the engine parameters as far as possible without inducing knock. Also higher octane fuels enable you to increase mpg, you'll go further on a tank :)

Obviously to reap the rewards properly you need to map your car whilst using the higher octane fuel so you can ramp things up whilst avoiding knock. Also the additives added to fuels like Shell v-Power are good for your engine so its win win. You might not notice an increase in a few horse power but every little helps, fuel alone won't give you a noticeable gain - its getting a proper dyne tune done.
 

alfatwo

Member
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5,517
fuel alone won't give you a noticeable gain - its getting a proper dyne tune done.[/QUOTE]

A good dose of turbo boost pressure certainly will,no matter what fuel you running!

Dave
 

Tim82

New Member
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40
A good dose of turbo boost pressure certainly will,no matter what fuel you running!

Dave

True that :) Did think of getting a custom turbo fitted to my 4200 GT but I'm not sure i need 600bhp and the engine bay lacks a bit of room for a decent sized charge cooler ;)
 

alfatwo

Member
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5,517
Prindiville do remapping for the old Marelli 3200 ECU's. the hardware part
is already sorted and is nicely engineered,450 bhp should be fairly easy!

Dave
 
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mjheathcote

Centenary Club
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Certainly the FD piggy back ECU for the 4200/GS can be setup for higher octane fuel.
Being switchable, you can select what map/fuel you want/filled up with.
 

hodroyd

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14,150
Well at least we are getting a few facts and decent opinions, but I'm sure the discussion will still roll on for some time yet and those that don't believe, won't..!!
 

Randy

Junior Member
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36
Certainly the FD piggy back ECU for the 4200/GS can be setup for higher octane fuel.
Being switchable, you can select what map/fuel you want/filled up with.

The question still remains as to how they do this. For me, I would want to know how the stock ECU I/O is spliced into, what parameters are being adjusted and how the stock ECU reacts to the changes in the long and short term. The reason I say this is that a piggyback can't just add a different ignition map, it has to fool the stock ECU into correcting its own map. Not easy to do safely/consistently when there are tons of correction tables in the stock ECU.
 

mjheathcote

Centenary Club
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9,046
Don't know Randy, I have the loom for their DBW module witch also incorporates their Piggyback ECU, and without looking must be 8 or more wires that need splicing or tapping into the cars loom.