Maserati fiddling emissions?
- Thread starter bigbob
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Both engines are 2987cc with the Maserati having another 25PS or thereabouts. Sounds too similar for comfort.
Wasn't it Bosch behind VW as well?
Honest John in The Telegraph on Saturday was writing about people complaining about the drivability of 'fixed' VW engines saying that power delivery was later in the rev range making them harder to keep on the boil, certainly in manual gearbox cars. Obviously an auto will mask it to some extent. Let's face it if the fix was easy then they would not have needed the cheat in the first place. VW is now toxic to me and I will not touch them. Trouble is how far will this rumble....
Wasn't it Bosch behind VW as well?
Honest John in The Telegraph on Saturday was writing about people complaining about the drivability of 'fixed' VW engines saying that power delivery was later in the rev range making them harder to keep on the boil, certainly in manual gearbox cars. Obviously an auto will mask it to some extent. Let's face it if the fix was easy then they would not have needed the cheat in the first place. VW is now toxic to me and I will not touch them. Trouble is how far will this rumble....
conaero
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It was, yes, and so the finger pointing between the two continues on, but they both knew what they were doing.
MrMickS
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In this world if you create a set of tests for companies to be measured by they will try to game the system. This isn't anything new and certainly isn't restricted to the automotive industry.
These car manufacturers are being caught out by a change to the way that the cars are tested, so testing outside the conditions for which the cars have been designed. Whilst it is misleading in terms of real world figures I see this as equally being a fault of the testing regime as the manufacturers. The other figures produced by manufacturers to sell cars are all under specific, known conditions as well. Top speed, acceleration, MPG, the list goes on. The problem here is that the EPA has been caught with its pants down. It set up a series of tests and didn't expect the manufacturers to optimise their cars to do well in the tests. This is as much a fault of the tests themselves as the car manufacturers. If the tests more accurately reflected real world usage, then it wouldn't be possible to have these irregularities.
These car manufacturers are being caught out by a change to the way that the cars are tested, so testing outside the conditions for which the cars have been designed. Whilst it is misleading in terms of real world figures I see this as equally being a fault of the testing regime as the manufacturers. The other figures produced by manufacturers to sell cars are all under specific, known conditions as well. Top speed, acceleration, MPG, the list goes on. The problem here is that the EPA has been caught with its pants down. It set up a series of tests and didn't expect the manufacturers to optimise their cars to do well in the tests. This is as much a fault of the tests themselves as the car manufacturers. If the tests more accurately reflected real world usage, then it wouldn't be possible to have these irregularities.
drewf
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Spot on.
I'm sure we will see more manufacturers with this issue. You can imagine the Bosch engineers just mentioning that there's *cough* a little trick we can help you with... Just sign this contract for the ECUs.
P R
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From what I have read on both cases this Fiat one is completely different (for now, lets see what further revelations come out!). The Fiat issue is they have software that protects the engine when necessary, using less emissions controls. Totally legal. The issue seems to be that they haven't (or that's what the EPA is claiming) informed them of all of these "maps". VW deliberately fitted software that cheated the test. Nothing to do with everyday driving.
outrun
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I may be able to help Bosch with mapping their ECUs......
Agree with you Allan, what impact has this really had on the consumer? I had the idea when it all originally broke from VW that it may be the next PPI, in fact I spoke to some people I know within that industry. The basic issue now is that there are some greedy and underfunded governments that are eying a payout in fines that will help bolster their poor management efforts. Once the chance to make a quick buck is presented, it's very hard to get away from. The politicians have to tread a tightrope between grabbing money for their coffers and being seen to be doing the right thing by the end user (read Voter). That's why i think it's possible that we'll eventually see payments made to owners. It will take some time to travel through the various courts and the end format is unknown however it is likely.
Agree with you Allan, what impact has this really had on the consumer? I had the idea when it all originally broke from VW that it may be the next PPI, in fact I spoke to some people I know within that industry. The basic issue now is that there are some greedy and underfunded governments that are eying a payout in fines that will help bolster their poor management efforts. Once the chance to make a quick buck is presented, it's very hard to get away from. The politicians have to tread a tightrope between grabbing money for their coffers and being seen to be doing the right thing by the end user (read Voter). That's why i think it's possible that we'll eventually see payments made to owners. It will take some time to travel through the various courts and the end format is unknown however it is likely.
conaero
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A lot of the issue is the EU setting CO2 reduction targets which are hard to deliver. However, the manufacturers' are not acting in a way that a fair and reasonable person would view as reasonable. UK case law would not excuse their manipulation. This has a lot more to run.
What always amazes me is that people shell out £30k (or equivalent finance/leasing etc spend) and sit there in a car with a 4 cylinder diesel engine that makes the pedals and gearbox vibrate, smells, makes an unappealing noise and costs more to service. All to save a relatively small amount of total motoring costs.
What always amazes me is that people shell out £30k (or equivalent finance/leasing etc spend) and sit there in a car with a 4 cylinder diesel engine that makes the pedals and gearbox vibrate, smells, makes an unappealing noise and costs more to service. All to save a relatively small amount of total motoring costs.
MrMickS
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People just look at the mpg and think that it must be cheaper even though they don't do the miles to make it worth it.
I've owned one diesel. It was a mistake. It won't happen again.
montravia
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Vowed never to buy a diesel. Relented, bought a 4x4 thingy for the wife on impulse a couple of months ago, 'cos she liked the thing. I hated it, and she in the end couldn't get on with the diesel and the astonshingly poor performance, coupled with 21 mpg from a turbo 2.2D. Astonishingly poor mpg, noisy, **** latency on the slushbox, press accelerator, stirring sounds, wait, lurch forward, overshoot, brake, noisy, slow and ponderous, noisy, rough, noisy, and with the heavy lump high, rolled all over the place. Oh and did I mention noisy too?
Ditched it last week and swapped it for a BMW X1 petrol auto. Overcame my huge prejudice for the blue propeller. It's like chalk and cheese; infinitely better in every way
Ditched it last week and swapped it for a BMW X1 petrol auto. Overcame my huge prejudice for the blue propeller. It's like chalk and cheese; infinitely better in every way
MrMickS
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That looks suspiciously like proper maths and not man maths
Is this a Maserati forum or a middle aged man forum?IMO if the answer is to buy the diesel then the wrong questions are being asked. If I were to believe what I read I should have bought the diesel Ghibli, it does better mpg, is cheaper to buy and to run, has more low-end torque which means I don't have to bother doing things with the gears, its also what the various magazine reviews say you should buy. There's no contest.
Yet there is hope. People are railing against the lack of a petrol Levante, though I suspect that most people would buy the diesel because the numbers make better sense
PS. Using normal maths you're better buying a Giulia QV than an MC Stradale. Any takers for that?
keith
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Just to provide a counter, having owned a Ghibli diesel for 18 months my observations :-
No smell
No excessive vibration, in fact about the same as a petrol.
ONCE WARMED UP, a little more noise at idle, but you would have to sit in silence with the climate control switched off to notice. In general driving the differences are all but indiscernible. In sport mode under acceleration the exhaust sound, to me, sounds great.
The performance, thanks to 600nm torque is for me more than enough. Given traffic conditions in the U.K, I can't imagine how a much greater level of performance could be used legally or safely.
Higher servicing costs are mitigated by lower annual RFL, and by the three year pay upfront service plan. Fuel economy benefits are obvious with over 40mpg possible on long journeys, although if just used for short journeys any benefits over the petrol would be negligible.
Given that the petrol and diesel cleverly have no external differences, nobody knows what engine I have, and thanks to that Sport mode exhaust sound even when running some think it's got a V8 petrol, although if you stand at the front of the car the diesel sound is clear.
Finally thanks to the ad blue tech the emissions are not greatly different from a petrol, so I shouldn't suffer with future taxing or congestion charging, and I saved a good few thousand in the purchase price to begin with.
As I have said before for those that knock diesel Maseratis, without them I doubt the company would continue to exist.
No smell
No excessive vibration, in fact about the same as a petrol.
ONCE WARMED UP, a little more noise at idle, but you would have to sit in silence with the climate control switched off to notice. In general driving the differences are all but indiscernible. In sport mode under acceleration the exhaust sound, to me, sounds great.
The performance, thanks to 600nm torque is for me more than enough. Given traffic conditions in the U.K, I can't imagine how a much greater level of performance could be used legally or safely.
Higher servicing costs are mitigated by lower annual RFL, and by the three year pay upfront service plan. Fuel economy benefits are obvious with over 40mpg possible on long journeys, although if just used for short journeys any benefits over the petrol would be negligible.
Given that the petrol and diesel cleverly have no external differences, nobody knows what engine I have, and thanks to that Sport mode exhaust sound even when running some think it's got a V8 petrol, although if you stand at the front of the car the diesel sound is clear.
Finally thanks to the ad blue tech the emissions are not greatly different from a petrol, so I shouldn't suffer with future taxing or congestion charging, and I saved a good few thousand in the purchase price to begin with.
As I have said before for those that knock diesel Maseratis, without them I doubt the company would continue to exist.