Biturbo's slow wipers..

[henris42]

I was thinking if anyone has upgraded the wiper motor in Biturbo/Ghibli?

Its well.... very... slow. My Alfa 159's slowest speed is faster than the fastest speed on biturbo. I'd imagine this would be easy upgrade, if there is similar but faster wiper motor.
I'd like to find a new motor that would go like ****, and I'd then add some new electronics to it to make it behave.

 

[dt95aac]

Never noticed the problem on the Ghibli, maybe it's a different motor to the earlier cars and can be retrofitted?

 

[alpa]

It's not the motor's fault, it's a power supply problem. Fusebox, wires, connectors. Wipers consume a huge amount of power so with a 55Amp alternator + loses everywhere it's even a miracle that they still work 30 years later. Make a voltage measure on the motor ends. Your 159 must have a 140 Amp alternator, just to give you an idea.
However you should be able to open the contactor to replace the old grease.

dt95aac, which Ghibli do you own ? I think only non-ABS Ghibli had the same fuse box as biturbo.

 

[henris42]

Good point. I'll do the voltage measurement, and also see how it runs without mechanics - that should minimize the current. I'm also trying to get a datasheet from Bosch, to see the angular speed and wattage it should have. If its a current issue, rewiring is always an option. It could be the ground side as well, the fuse box is not an issue since I have the BITURBOX in there.

 

[Oneball]

Worth checking all the joints are free too, maybe disconnect the arm from the motor and see how easily the wipers move.

 

[dt95aac]

dt95aac, which Ghibli do you own ? I think only non-ABS Ghibli had the same fuse box as biturbo.

Mine is an ABS car also I have upgraded my alternator to an 85Amp one

 

[alpa]

Good point. I'll do the voltage measurement, and also see how it runs without mechanics - that should minimize the current. I'm also trying to get a datasheet from Bosch, to see the angular speed and wattage it should have. If its a current issue, rewiring is always an option. It could be the ground side as well, the fuse box is not an issue since I have the BITURBOX in there.

I don't see what disconnecting the mechanism would tell you. It's like trying to reach 250km/h with rear wheels in the air: yes you'll reach. Does this tell you anything about how much you'll reach on the road and why ? No. Only a real world test will tell you.
Of course there can be mechanical reasons, most often the old grease inside the motor's switch, and potentially worn joints like Oneball said.
But to me the main reason is an undersized electric system of the car.

Biturbox was a huge engineering work to repack an undersized switch box into a new good looking but still undersized box. It solves may be 30% of all electric problems. The same result is obtained with a 2 hours work on the ground and 12v wires inside the box (which gives a very good result for an everyday usage of a biturbo, my experience over 15 years) + a replacement of old fuses with more recent flat ones (about 4 hours of work).
The main problem is that biturbo was designed as a carb car in 80s. Carb car means the engine consumes almost no current. 80s means poor quality fuses, relays and connectors (even though most of connectors are OK). While the car was electrically and electronically quite advanced so was consuming a lot. And then they bolted an injection on top of that, which consumes at least 10 Amps more (just the pump is 2-3 Amps). Plus a more sophisticated aeration/AC system. The aeration system consumes so much that Maserati later did a special kit to re-route power through a separate set of 2 relays directly to the battery.

In your car the result is an undersized 55 Amp alternator that feeds the car through a tiny 12v cable (often mecanically worn, means high losses), then this goes to the proud BITURBOX that distributes all this flow through a ridiculous 30Amp main relay (it heats so much that the relay's connector unsolders itself from the original board, BITURBOX could at least have replaced this one with a 50 Amp relay), then a low number of undersized fuses to many consumers (with windows controlled through poor quality switches). Each time it's undersized means it heats, which means there are high losses (heat makes grow the electrical resistance of a conductor).
In a car designed in 90s there would be 50-100% more fuses, more relays, higher rated relays and fuses. Basically what FIAT did in QP4.

It's true that there are many other relays with fuses under that hood. But all this mess with tons wires that every stupid mechanic tries to "improve" makes the connections loose and again there are losses.

 

[alpa]

Mine is an ABS car also I have upgraded my alternator to an 85Amp one

Why ? Did not you have a 105Amp alternator ? And I believe the electric system was at least partially redesigned on ABS (see my answer above).

 

[henris42]

There is indeed reason to check without load - to see the speed. You can then extrapolate how fast its supposed to be, from the angular speed of the motor. I want to see if its slow as **** from birth, and if I should find something more powerful.

I do agree with you on the wiring. I'm leaning towards putting a new relay box for wipers and windows. Its all miserable.

However, the amps of alternator do not affect this at all. In good wiring, the battery is more than able to give the max 10-15 amps to the wiper or windows. Bigger alternator will not help, its snake oil. You don't benefit for 105 amp alternator if the wiper needs 10A.

 

[alpa]

Any improvement of these cars is good.
I can just tell you that having driven a biturbo almost every day for 15 last years I was mainly bothered by the absence of adjustable intermittent wipers, the speed of the windows and by the fall of the voltage level when I was stuck for an hour in a traffic jam under the rain with lights and defroster ON. My both biturbo have an improved fuse box with modern fuses. Another problem is a very on/off heating regulation, when it's 0-5C outside it's painful. Air leaks through the heating system (on the feet) and the absence of a good foot heating. There are many more minor problems.

Of course faster wipers would be nice but they'd only help under a heavy rain on a motorway. So if yours are REALLY slow you probably have an additional problem in the system.

 

[henris42]

We're definitely on the same page on this. I started making a new relay box for both wipers and windows, and I'm going to put 2.5mm2 cable to make sure it gives all the current needed. The stock cable is really, really thin...

Intermittent wipers are also indeed poor, so I took some components from my electronics parts bin and put together an adjustable one. I'll put just a small non-invasive knob in the dash for it.

Lets see the wiper speed after that, I can always uprate the motor if I still think its necessary. We'll see.

 

[alpa]

We're definitely on the same page on this. I started making a new relay box for both wipers and windows, and I'm going to put 2.5mm2 cable to make sure it gives all the current needed. The stock cable is really, really thin...

These additional relays should be inside the magic biturbox.

 

[alpa]

Another little problem I've just discovered: when the window is closed but the button remains pressed the consumption (per window) is over 10Amp.
With a 55 Amp alternator you'll have to avoid closing both windows in the same time.

Other devices that should be in the biturbox: window motor controls with relays and current limiters.

BTW: the interior blower in 3rd speed it's 7 Amps

 

[henris42]

As in the magic biturbox there are no relays for those, just the original 3 ones - horn etc. Same for wipers. You need 6 more relays. Its a good idea for "biturbox2" to integrate those if boys at Galileo want to hack more -
would need bigger power feed etc then naturally.
I've been also pondering on the current limiter, whether to put one in there. Its not really needed, most window regulators don't use one (I assume new cars have those?).. just don't sit on the buttons.

Anycase its a good thing to wire those out from the fuse box, it gives much better overhead.

I just hacked together a small relay unit from cheap parts from local auto store, plus 3D-printed base to protect it. I'm assuming there is no nice place to install.

 

[henris42]

Oh, and your interesting note on the ínternal blower, it would be indeed an interesting measurement to see what is the power draw

• Engine running in idle, fans running
• All lights on, high beam + fog lights
• Aircon on full
• Hifi on full steam
• wipers on

Just wondering on how tight that 55amp alternator is. I'd not be worried for really intermittent stuff like windows, the battery can give extra 100A for short periods.
But thin wiring may cause severe losses for constant output, would be interesting to check the real load.

If you have checked the alternators, are there part numbers etc for uprated units that fit? I did go to a service shop with my alternator - one that has hundreds units in stock, and he did not find an aftermarket replacement for it. However the unit was in very good shape so I did not bother to investigate further then.

 

[F456M]

Oh, and your interesting note on the ínternal blower, it would be indeed an interesting measurement to see what is the power draw

• Engine running in idle, fans running
• All lights on, high beam + fog lights
• Aircon on full
• Hifi on full steam
• wipers on

Just wondering on how tight that 55amp alternator is. I'd not be worried for really intermittent stuff like windows, the battery can give extra 100A for short periods.
But thin wiring may cause severe losses for constant output, would be interesting to check the real load.

If you have checked the alternators, are there part numbers etc for uprated units that fit? I did go to a service shop with my alternator - one that has hundreds units in stock, and he did not find an aftermarket replacement for it. However the unit was in very good shape so I did not bother to investigate further then.

I totally agree with you. These cars need a much more solid electrical system. The first I have done to my Spyder i is to relocate the battery to the rear of the car and I will have a 115 Ah battery. This way, the car can stand left alone for much longer periods of time aswell. My 550 Maranello has 140 Amp alternator. It works perfect.

 

[Maurizio]

Having read this thread with interest, I would like to add some comments.

The original fuse box major flaw is mechanical rather than electrical. I mean, without even starting a discussion on torpedo fuses, and PCB routes dimensioning, the board is built around male tabs (or females, for relays) that are soldered, via their only soldering edge, to a flexible circuit, folded 180° in the middle, in an environment which is subject to strong vibration. Each tab is attached to a connector that, in turn, is also a source of vibration and movement. What can go wrong? This said, obviously the torpedo fuses and the rest of the PCB design leave a lot to be desired, too.

So, to start with, we designed each male tab of the Biturbox to be soldered through its own two soldering edges to a 2.4mm FR4 PCB, as tough as it can get.
Regardless of the number of hours you spend soldering wires and replacing fuses, a task which is way beyond most Biturbo owner skills anyway, you can't overcome this inherent flaw of the original box.

Space is limited by the size of the box, and currents are rather high. Therefore, when we designed the board, we did it with increased thickness of the copper routes, to properly cope with the system loads - the copper thickness can be specified to the PCB maker. Same principle was applied throughout the rest of the design.

As to 50A relay, feel free to use it: we don't provide relays but there's nothing wrong with using it.

We don't have plans to make modifications to other parts of the electrical harness, except for the replacement relay with fuse, that should be available in hopefully 15 days. They are newly made, with Italamec 218 / 609 compatible pinout (i.e. direct drop in for the original fused relays), are rated 40A @13.5V DC and have a temperature range of -40/+125° C to be used under the hood.

As for current limiters, I have put a thermal switch on the heating flow regulator valve to protect its little motor if stalling, in my own 2.24v. For the windows, I trust my fingers

 

[alpa]

The Alfa 164 fuse box was built exactly the same way as the biturbo's and had no problems. But there were much more relays and flat fuses. So the flexible PCB was not the problem, the problem was the overload on relays and fuses that heat too much.
I listed most of my critics to biturbox in this thread. I'm convinced if you had redesigned the box with more fuses, relays and current limiters, had included inside the Maserati A/C/window kit, packaged in a new 3D printed plastic box, even if it costed 1500-2000e people would buy it. I would probably buy it !
These cars are cheap. Those who don't want to invest a penny in these cars won't buy biturbox, but they won't drive them often any way (and they will sell them after 1-2 big issues). Those who want them to be reliable are ready to pay huge money to stupid mechanics (who do poor job). So I think paying up to 2000e for a definitive solution would be an acceptable option.
I found aliexpress window control 8A - 30A current limiters. Work fine, quality to be tested on a long run.

I explained somewhere what must be made inside the A/C control box to make it reliable (change the component if needed and install a radiator, according to the datasheet of the component). No need for thermal switches for the heating valve motor. BTW I don't think the related component smokes, it's always the air vane component that smokes.

 

[henris42]

I'm with Alpa on this one, there is a reason why I'm rewiring the weak spots anew. Using fingers to help the windows is not acceptable, as well as the tired wipers.
The BITURBOX was a great buy, it fixed lots of issues after a long period outside. The foil PCB is a source of trouble, one I had started to peel off the copper. So definitely new PCB was needed. I don't want to rewire the whole car!

On that A/C I gather that some units have low-spec transistor arrays, which can be updated. Some extra heat sink is good idea. For my unit I also changed the bulbs to white LEDs.

PS: Maurizio please take care of QC, I had an unsoldered horn pin on my PCB...

 

[Maurizio]

Henry, thank you for the compliments on the Biturbox. I'm sorry for the unsoldered pin. I do them by hand one by one and I try to do it very carefully, and one must have gone missing. How did you find that out? The horn relay is tested twice as part of the post production check procedure. Was it visual, or the horn didn't respond?
What is you Biturbox series number if you can tell, so that I can add this to its history log. It is marked on the carton box as well as under the plastic relay cover.