End float

Ewan

Ewan

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6,818
Definitely talk to Myles at Emblem. He is currently rebuilding an engine after end float issues so is bang up to date with what parts are not available. It's taken about three months to source the bits, many of which are only available from the specialist used market (so have to go off to be checked and remachined before re-use).

This particular car was a low mileage, full history example that was driving perfectly well when the end-float measurement was deemed worrying. When the engine was taken out and stripped, the crankshaft was worn and distorted, the bottom end damaged, the heads were worn and corroded, etc. So the rebuild is bigger and more expensive than you might think. Probably in the region of £15k - approximately the value of the car. The plan is to have it completed by late summer, at which point it will be an excellent example of a 3200 GT with a fully rebuilt engine.
 
StuartW

StuartW

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9,320
Ewan said:
Definitely talk to Myles at Emblem. He is currently rebuilding an engine after end float issues so is bang up to date with what parts are not available. It's taken about three months to source the bits, many of which are only available from the specialist used market (so have to go off to be checked and remachined before re-use).

This particular car was a low mileage, full history example that was driving perfectly well when the end-float measurement was deemed worrying. When the engine was taken out and stripped, the crankshaft was worn and distorted, the bottom end damaged, the heads were worn and corroded, etc. So the rebuild is bigger and more expensive than you might think. Probably in the region of £15k - approximately the value of the car. The plan is to have it completed by late summer, at which point it will be an excellent example of a 3200 GT with a fully rebuilt engine.
Click to expand...

That's a pretty terrifying story and it makes you wonder just how many 3200s will be left in a few years from now. The lack of parts and the fact that they are really beyond economic repair leaves them in the realms of enthusiastic owners with deep pockets only, a sad situation for sure
 
Boomerang_GT

Boomerang_GT

Member
Messages
203
Thanks for all the interesting inputs.


allandwf said:
The washers, that may wear, are on the crank. It is the act of activating the clutch that puts pressure on them, in a horizontal plane. Once worn they allow excessive fore and aft movement of the crankshaft.
Click to expand...

Sure the washers are on the crank? I mean it would make sense but I just know about the front washers in the engine block.

In general there is so little information on how to permanently fix this issue. I mean alone the fact that there is an oversize front washer but what about the rear? If the rear washer wears out too, the crank will move backwards...

I hope keeping an eye on the clearance and using Motul Esther core which claims having a more stable oil film, keeps the engine running until 100.000km where I was planning an overhaul.
 
B

beau

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1,391
I guess just keep an eye on it, you must remember it's one of those things where you could get it rebuilt and it wear them out again in another 20k miles but leaving and keeping an eye may run another 30k miles, you just don't know
 
mjheathcote

mjheathcote

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9,038
Has anyone done an engine swop?
Okay not preferred but would make an interesting daily driver.
Seems a shame to break a perfectly good shell and drivetrain because of the engine.
Could always keep the engine incase parts availability change.
Look at my Triumph Stag, in the 80's engine swops were popular, then the situation changed and sorting the engine problems is now a thing of the past, and nearly every Stag is now 40 years old.
 
Rex B

Rex B

Member
Messages
657
if the end float is out of tolerance then its a sign that the white metal on the trust washers has worn away. If it is caught early you may save the crankshaft and a few thousand pounds so if it is out of tolerance get it second checked and rebuild the engine sooner that her than later. While its being rebuilt there is a modification that some Indies do to improve the oil flow to the rear thrust washers which are the ones which are effected by the pull clutch. I think this involves plugging an oil drain gallery in the crankcase to improve flow to thrust washer but am not sure of the exact detail but it might be obvious when the engine is stripped down, or perhaps someone on here knows.

Anyway best of luck .

Rex B

Manual 3200 71k with crossed fingers.
 
RW3200

RW3200

Junior Member
Messages
295
Quote - not sure which thrust washer you mention I certainly wouldn't want the crank one done if no need.


Allan, after checking my work report in my service file I can clarify that I meant the 'clutch release bearing' being changed when the clutch was done. Was advised to do it as I wanted the whole clutch assembly renewed and flywheel re-balanced as part of an overhaul when I first got the car. Apologies for confusing the issue, it was definitely not the thrust washers.


Also, reading through some old threads I came across one with an excellent write up from Nigello on the end float subject. I will try to locate it again and re-post to this thread for reference.
Hopefully, here is the link:

http://www.sportsmaserati.co.uk/showthread.php/543-3200-Crank-Endfloat-Explained


Cheers,
R
 
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alfatwo

alfatwo

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5,517
These are the thrust washers out of my old 3200GT after the strip down, they were worn so thin they were about to climb over each other and spin round, that would have scrapped the engine block and the crank shaft..

Luckily we caught it in time!

Pics of the worn bearings and what a new set looks like which unfortunately are no longer available in standard sized sets

IMG_0039.jpg

IMG_0037.jpg


Dave
 
spacecadet

spacecadet

Member
Messages
378
Wow, that looks really bad, just caught in time.

How can I measure end float properly? Dial gauge on crank pulley but how to make the crank itself move?
 
alfatwo

alfatwo

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5,517
spacecadet said:
Wow, that looks really bad, just caught in time.

How can I measure end float properly? Dial gauge on crank pulley but how to make the crank itself move?
Click to expand...

I just thought O Sh*t and walked away for a couple of month's..

I think basically if you find any play whatsoever the bearing material will have at least worn down to the copper coating or worse!

Dave
 
Boomerang_GT

Boomerang_GT

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Messages
203
alfatwo said:
These are the thrust washers out of my old 3200GT after the strip down, they were worn so thin they were about to climb over each other and spin round, that would have scrapped the engine block and the crank shaft..

Luckily we caught it in time!

Pics of the worn bearings and what a new set looks like which unfortunately are no longer available in standard sized sets

View attachment 44400

View attachment 44399


Dave
Click to expand...

Thanks for the pics! What would be really interesting is, how much was the measured clearance before you took the engine apart?
Looks like it should have been 1mm?

Thanks!
 
conaero

conaero

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34,639
spacecadet said:
Wow, that looks really bad, just caught in time.

How can I measure end float properly? Dial gauge on crank pulley but how to make the crank itself move?
Click to expand...

2 things to watch out for.

1. Dancing oil pressure gauge with pressure drop when depressing the clutch. Change the sender and check wiring first.
2. Get someone to pump the clutch pedal and watch the front crank pulley for movement and crank slop.
3. Don't panic!
 
Boomerang_GT

Boomerang_GT

Member
Messages
203
spacecadet said:
Wow, that looks really bad, just caught in time.

How can I measure end float properly? Dial gauge on crank pulley but how to make the crank itself move?
Click to expand...

You remove the air hoses and cooler hoses in the front. Maybe you don't need to do this if you work from underneath.
You mount a micrometer dial on an magnet stand wit the dial touching the crankshaft from the front. Then you film it or ask someone to read the scale. Then you press and release the clutch. Pressing the clutch will pull the crank away from the front. Then you pull the crank to the front strongly. The total difference is the clearance. Should be less than 0,2mm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7v1UIxUo0A&feature=youtu.be
 
alfatwo

alfatwo

Member
Messages
5,517
Boomerang_GT said:
Thanks for the pics! What would be really interesting is, how much was the measured clearance before you took the engine apart?
Looks like it should have been 1mm?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Trouble is they were never any indications that there was ever a problem.. it was only when took the old banger for a MOT test one Saturday afternoon and mentioned it to one of the young guys there..

So him and is brother who works for JLR after a bit of faffing about came to the conclusion that there was about half a mill of crank end float

By then I knew I was done!

Dave
 
Tamariini

Tamariini

Junior Member
Messages
102
After reading all of these end float horror stories on this forum i encouraged myself to measure crankshaft travel from my own -01 3200 GTA (even if this USUALLY is not problem on Auto transmission cars...)

Max reading i got was 0,15-0,16mm so i should be safe?? (for now at least...)

20180125_171637.jpg
 
Ewan

Ewan

Member
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6,818
You're in luck - that's well within the recommended tolerance guide of 0.15 to 0.2 mm.

My friend is due to collect his manual 3200 from Emblem tomorrow after a major engine rebuild (due to exaggerated end float). It's taken many, many months as the required parts are now all but impossible to obtain. Interestingly, chatting to Emblem today I got the impression they'd not be instantly keen to take on another, such is the time and effort now required to source (and manufacture) the parts.
 
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