Track tyres / setup

[m1980k]

I have a decision to make as it looks like I need new front tyres. Am I nuts to think about fitting Toyo R888s all round? With a bit of shopping around, I can get a full set for £700-800 vs. £500-600 for Goodyear F1s or Michelin PSSs.

Last night on the track, it was the tyres rather than the brakes that gave up first (although some of that will be down to my less than agressive braking). I'm going to get stainless steel lines and better pads fitted soon as well as the alignment done and Matt at Giallo is going to tweak the spring/damper settings. Hopefully I'll do 3 more track days this year (including Llandow), otherwise the car gets used for evening/early morning B road blasts. Might do some day trips when the baby is out of a pram and into a buggy that will fit in the boot. I'm considering putting the car in storage next winter too - don't tend to bother going out for a drive when it's freezing cold or raining.

I guess my biggest concern is that sticky tyres and higher friction pads will then lead to brake discs (and maybe calipers?) being the weak link. Also, is it worth putting sticky tyres on a heavy car with merely adequate brakes and a tendency to roll?

Maybe next year or the year after, I'll have a big brake kit and the FD springs and roll bars. But can't justify spending the £6.5k + fitting right now....

 

[Wack61]

I'd say it depends on how much track time you're likely to do V how they are on the road and how quick they'll wear out.

Best option would be a spare set of wheels with track tyres on but when you add that cost on plus a brake upgrade it'd be as cheap to buy a track toy

 

[drewf]

+1

Spare set of wheels with track tyres. They will be an easy sell later too.

 

[Klive]

That's an interesting thought. I enjoy taking a car to it's limit and then a little beyond where it's then my ability to control it that takes over. What you are suggesting is to extend the car limit bit by bit. Is it because you want to go faster or that you want to improve the car?
I would start with the brakes. Having driven more powerful cars I have been very impressed with their stopping distances and this would be a clear benefit on both the road and track.
If you're going to continue to use the car for the road then make sure the tyres will also be good in the wet. You can still enjoy the car when it's raining albeit at a slower speed. The experience will give you a better understanding of what you need to know at higher speeds when it goes a little wrong in the dry.
I read in to your post that you're enjoying the car in more ways than simply driving it. Have fun.

 

[m1980k]

I'd say it depends on how much track time you're likely to do V how they are on the road and how quick they'll wear out.

Best option would be a spare set of wheels with track tyres on but when you add that cost on plus a brake upgrade it'd be as cheap to buy a track toy

Wear not an issue. Reckon I'll only do 2,000 miles in the car this year. Can I just swap wheels without worrying about alignment etc? Would the track tyres really be that much of a compromise on the road on a warm day?

The economically sensible thing is indeed to get a track toy. I could get a clio 182 with coilovers and upgraded brakes for less than the cost of a BBK for the GS. But I like unleashing the V8 on track! With all the mods, a GS would be an absolute weapon - the hot hatches couldn't live with me on the straights last night!

 

[Klive]

Best option would be a spare set of wheels with track tyres on

I'd thought about that, but you would need a trailer for either the whole car or the wheels.

 

[m1980k]

That's an interesting thought. I enjoy taking a car to it's limit and then a little beyond where it's then my ability to control it that takes over. What you are suggesting is to extend the car limit bit by bit. Is it because you want to go faster or that you want to improve the car?
I would start with the brakes. Having driven more powerful cars I have been very impressed with their stopping distances and this would be a clear benefit on both the road and track.
If you're going to continue to use the car for the road then make sure the tyres will also be good in the wet. You can still enjoy the car when it's raining albeit at a slower speed. The experience will give you a better understanding of what you need to know at higher speeds when it goes a little wrong in the dry.
I read in to your post that you're enjoying the car in more ways than simply driving it. Have fun.

You're right - I'm very much enjoying owning the car - it looks and sounds great (even better when I fit the H pipe Benny's sent me). I'm not chasing lap times, just like to get into a nice rhythm with the car. I can sense the roll and the brakes don't inspire confidence - I just want to improve things a little bit. It's a great car and with a few tweaks it would be incredible.

 

[steamer]

Not exactly the same, but sort off. I have been down this route with bikes.

Road bike used for a few trackdays, Then race tyres. They then tied the suspension in knots so bought ktech/ohlins suspension, then brembo brakes, new exhaust race bodywork, quickshifter, traction re-map, engine remap, engine tune etc etc. Everytime you upgrade something it highlights the weakness elsewhere.

Did I go quicker ? Yes, some of which was more track experience, some the mods. How much was attributed to each ? Who knows.

Did it make riding more fun ? At first I thought so, but in the end I realised it didn't.

Money spent on more track time and maybe instruction is where I believe track fun v value comes from.

Just my 2 pence.

 

[Wack61]

I'd thought about that, but you would need a trailer for either the whole car or the wheels.

I meant road legal track tyres which you could put on the car before you drove it to the track , toyo R888s are road legal

 

[safrane]

Be quick. Article in last months EVO outlined most legal track tyres are now banned with old stock being the last of many lines.

Some manufacturers have designed new onws that comply but much fewer are available.

 

[Assetto 52]

Im running triple 8's all round, the big down side is checking the weather for rain! because they don't mix to well.

 

[outrun]

You can get an AP big brake kit for them. I had it on my old car. I'd consider a 2nd set of wheels too for the track, it's just easier in lots of ways.

 

[m1980k]

You can get an AP big brake kit for them. I had it on my old car. I'd consider a 2nd set of wheels too for the track, it's just easier in lots of ways.

Yes, I could get the AP kit but that's even more expensive than Brembo! Can't justify spending four or five grand on brakes this year unfortunately.

Did you track the car much? How did it cope? Tyres ok? Did it have any suspension tweaks?

 

[RW3200]

In my view your biggest problem taking the car on track is weight transfer.
I'd look at springs, damping and anti-roll bars/bracing first. They will need setting up too. You should be able to get some good results as there is a bit of adjustment to play with without spending big money.
This will take a bit of pressure off the brakes and tyres as there will be less pressure on each corner due to the weight being better balanced, eg less body roll etc.
Your brakes and tyres will feel better as a result, though they will still need breaks to cool down.

If you just put different tyres on you may get a bit more grip but the car will still stress them in the same way as it currently does.
Another thing to remember with track biased tyres is that to get them to work you need to get them up to temperature so stop start driving between traffic lights etc won't feel great. There's always a trade off.

The dilemma is how far to take it without sacrificing too much comfort on the road, allowing for cut up surfaces, potholes and speed bumps etc.

Just a little info to help you get the set up that suits you, I hope it helps.
Would like to hear what you end up doing and how it goes, have fun.

 

[outrun]

Yes, I could get the AP kit but that's even more expensive than Brembo! Can't justify spending four or five grand on brakes this year unfortunately.

Did you track the car much? How did it cope? Tyres ok? Did it have any suspension tweaks?

Yes, I took it on track several times, not holding back. I played with the suspension height etc and always used an expert to corner weight etc. In the end, it wasn't too far off stock, I found the lower it was, the more harsh it became and ended up with bump steer and sudden loss of traction. I think you'd need to look at a different spring rate at least, perhaps the Formula Dynamics springs would be a good place to start. It's not the lightest car and will never outperform, say a GT3, but there is still much you can do without the cost being heavy. To be honest, the brakes were not my favourite thing with the APs either being on or off, not much in the way of feel. The standard Bembos are decent and perhaps a change of pads to something more carbon based such as Ferrodo would be adequate for most. As RW says, weight is an issue and so springs, anti-roll bars and bracing etc are likely to help a great deal. As would making it lighter. It's easy enough to get rid of quite a lot of weight but at the expense of comfort and probably value. Seats, carpets, hi-fi, air con etc are all too heavy for a good track car....

 

[spn]

I have a decision to make as it looks like I need new front tyres. Am I nuts to think about fitting Toyo R888s all round? With a bit of shopping around, I can get a full set for £700-800 vs. £500-600 for Goodyear F1s or Michelin PSSs.

Last night on the track, it was the tyres rather than the brakes that gave up first (although some of that will be down to my less than agressive braking). I'm going to get stainless steel lines and better pads fitted soon as well as the alignment done and Matt at Giallo is going to tweak the spring/damper settings. Hopefully I'll do 3 more track days this year (including Llandow), otherwise the car gets used for evening/early morning B road blasts. Might do some day trips when the baby is out of a pram and into a buggy that will fit in the boot. I'm considering putting the car in storage next winter too - don't tend to bother going out for a drive when it's freezing cold or raining.

I guess my biggest concern is that sticky tyres and higher friction pads will then lead to brake discs (and maybe calipers?) being the weak link. Also, is it worth putting sticky tyres on a heavy car with merely adequate brakes and a tendency to roll?

Maybe next year or the year after, I'll have a big brake kit and the FD springs and roll bars. But can't justify spending the £6.5k + fitting right now....

I'd have thought 888s would be too soft for the Maserati on track. Dunlop DZ03 in H1 or Yoko A048s in H would be my choice or maybe some Kumho V70s in K60 would all last a lot better and give a better feel on track once they were up to temperature.

If you don't mind washing the wheels and paintwork after use, try some Carbotech XP10 / 12 /16 pads or some aggressive Performance Friction pads - might save you an upgrade.

My 4200 is strictly a road car but if I was going to use it on track, that's what I'd try first.

Cheers,

Simon

 

[foxsasha]

I'd have thought 888s would be too soft for the Maserati on track. Dunlop DZ03 in H1 or Yoko A048s in H would be my choice or maybe some Kumho V70s in K60 would all last a lot better and give a better feel on track once they were up to temperature.

If you don't mind washing the wheels and paintwork after use, try some Carbotech XP10 / 12 /16 pads or some aggressive Performance Friction pads - might save you an upgrade.

My 4200 is strictly a road car but if I was going to use it on track, that's what I'd try first.

Cheers,

Simon

Was going to say the same thing, R888s will overheat very quickly on a Maserati. DZ03s are a better choice. Pagid pads are also very good, RS29s.

 

[m1980k]

Thanks for the opinions, all very useful. Think I'll stick with Michelin PSSs for now. I'll do another track session and see how I get on once I've had the geometry checked, minor suspension tweaks and new pads and brake lines. I suspect I'll end up with the FD springs and roll bars, but will probably want the DBW so I can get snappier gearchanges in standard mode as the ride in sport might become a little harsh for the road.

Interestingly, the guys at FD had bad things to say about lowering the car on the standard springs (seems to fit with outrun's experience) - they also say there were cases of dampers being damaged.

I would like to take the weight out of the car, but really want to keep it comfortable too. And since I love the standard seats and want to keep the aircon, I don't think there's that much scope for lightening it without going down the expensive route of lightweight battery, plastic bonnet etc.

 

[chad5k1]

Our Ghibli only ever sees the track. I'd suggest considering Federal 595 RS-R. Much cheaper than toyo and last much better too. Recent Evo suggested an alternative tyre (can't remember the name now), but this seems to have a harder sidewall again, which could be good for a heavy car.
For brake pads, you will want to consider the Ferodo DS2500. They are bulletproof on track and still use-able on the road.
Most important is to have fun. You can pay more and more money for more speed and durability, but at the end of the day does it add more enjoyment? I'm not so sure - it just makes you faster, at least you hope so!
Add bits and make changes as you go, you will get better over time with practice and instruction.
Easy for me to say, it all started with a trip to the 'ring 10 years ago, now we have a car that is totally track prepared and unsuitable for the road - woops!

 

[Tufan]

I want to make this thread live as I want to understand also how much pressure you reduce before you track. My Trofeo R tyres did not make it on time so I will kill the last bits of Pirellis tomorrow for a 20 min short track period. Any suggestion on tyre pressures?