Torque Tube and Bell housing removed..........

[CraigWaterman11]

Okay the Bell housing bearing I didn't change, it seemed to be really good. I took that into consideration with the 26k but wait let me make sure we are talking about the same thing here. Now the Bell housing bearing is different than the Spigot/Pilot bearing. I don't know that it would make sense though.....so if I'm understanding correctly the Bell housing bearing would be this, also known as the clutch shaft bearing:

​

It's locked in back with a "C" clip like this (pic below)... I don't know if you can see it here but it has an opening slightly on the left by the shaft. That "c" clip retainer was pretty hefty. I pulled it from the front when I took the photos above because the thrust/slave cylinder base was already removed:

The front is locked in with all the bolts in the base of the thrust bearing like this:

Is this what you guys are referencing? Matt, I'm all for making sure I don't have to take the girl apart again. I just want to make sure I'm on the same sheet of music with everyone else on hard lessons they learned from the car. Lets see if I can figure out where we are going, or what bearing we are speaking of. So those are the only two bearing in that area. The clutch shaft bearing (bell housing bearing) and the Spigot/Pilot bearing. There are no others I know of, well, of course the Thrust bearing itself but we won't be hitting that with anything I'm pretty sure!

 

[CraigWaterman11]

@ Maverick great suggestion on the loctite as well. I use Permatex but both companies are exceptional. What I do is clean the crankshaft so that when I pound the bearing in place there's no dirt, grease, or debris to allow it to move. I've never used Loctite around the outside of a bearing because of the force necessary to pound it in I figured it would hold it. However, that being stated, like the garlic bread, that goes in my back pocket for the next vehicle I do when it comes to the Spigot bearing. I will have to say though whatever mechanic tries to take it out after me is going to be some ******! I've broken pilot bearing pullers before removing them, and that's without the loctite! Actually that's why I used bread in this one because I broke the last puller I had. The bread has never failed me. It creates it's own hydraulic pressure behind the bearing forcing it out.

 

[maverick]

Working in engineering I would suggest pinning on centre punching around a needle or roller bearing would not be a great idea and could possible have the reverse affect and could result in the dreaded squeal coming sooner , I would talk to a bearing supplier give them the size of bearing and type and there may be able to match with a slightly over size out side diameter also using a bearing retainer ( loctite) would also help , a little tip would be before fitting place the bearing in a freezer over night you will be surprised how much metal shrinks even just below freezing this will reduce the force used to fit it with , you may find you can just push it in by hand , again this will help to reduce the stress on the part it's fitting into . If you Pm the size I could speak to my bearing supplier for you .

Arh you beat me to a reply looks like you may have already fit it but again I could possible source the over size bearings for furture clutch replacements .

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Maverick, I agree with the punching for this type of bearing, I could understand the bushing. I totally agree with you. That's why I think it's good we brought it up on the forum to track down what we are talking about. Right now I'm not totally sure if we are talking about this bearing, or center punching. But again it's what makes the dialog of the forum good because if we can track it down we are definitely in the right type of posting to address it.

Yes freezing, glad you brought this up as well. I know about it but I don't use it for everything because I've always wondered if it would create a condensation barrier between the metals because it's frozen when I am putting it in. In this situation with the crank and pilot bearing I really honestly believe they have the correct dimensions to fit exactly as a pilot bearing should. i don't really think with this type of pilot bearing it's going to create enough friction to spin in the crank unless the bearing fails. Again I might be missing something regardless of how sure I might be and so I am really listening to see if we are all talking about the same thing or not.

 

[Klive]

Following 3 attempts by the dealer to stop the squeeling of mine they replaced the clutch and applied this official fix to the bell housing bearing.
I must confess though it seems a little risky on this type of bearing.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Klive do you have any details of what they actually replaced for bearings? If you have the part numbers I can look it up that way and tell you exactly. I guess I am trying to figure out what they did. So it was the bell housing bearing not the crankshaft bearing or Pilot bearing rather? I know you probably don't want to dig through all of your receipts. It might be that it was in fact the bell housing bearing they tried this with. I'm not saying I agree with it or not. I'm saying the clutch shaft bearing could in fact turn in it's housing like the pilot bearing could if it was jammed up. Though there are retainers on both sides of that bearing those don't keep it from rotating in it's socket anymore than a pilot bearing would. The problem would be that I don't know how it could turn unless the balls it rides on got stuck or it dried out or became contaminated. It's a sealed bearing similar to the pilot bearing. In which case, there would be no way to fix it even by center punching it. They very well could have tried this though after replacing the bearing. In this case I actually think it would have been fixed by replacing the bearing. The metal around where that big bearing sits isn't hard, it's soft. So even punching it wouldn't of been a great solution. Please don't feel I'm doubting you. I believe you. I wouldn't say someone wouldn't try it, and it's what you could do for a normal bushing. So it very well could be they did this when they finally replaced the bearing, and they felt it was what stopped you from running over the pig.

 

[maverick]

Its also worth mentioning that not all bearing manufactures are on the same page ,there are good and bad ,you also can get Bearings s in different grades of presision for the same size bearing which = longer life . I am not sure which manufacture maserati use but I would imagine its not the best or worse .

 

[Klive]

Craig, this was all done under warranty for me, hence no receipts, therefore what follows is my 6 year old memory. I bought the car at 2 1/2 years old thus leaving 6 months warranty. It had a squeal at take off and after 3 attempts by the dealer, the first to replace the spigot bearing only, they replaced the clutch. Within those 3 attempts they also replaced the bell housing bearing as according to them the vibration of the spigot bearing spinning in its housing can travel along the shaft and loosen this other bearing. That's about my memory of the tale I was told at the time. I reminded myself of the centre punching from a post I wrote on the other forum a few years ago.
I wish I could be more help.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Okay, I really appreciate it Klive you've help more than you know. I had dinner with a forum member (ML forum)and his wife over here across the pond on Sunday. He was wanting help for the exact same thing. Squealing on take off. The pilot bearing is what I assumed on his as well. I do greatly appreciate all your input for this.

 

[2b1ask1]

If the spigot bearing has been upgraded from a needle roller to a sealed ball race I would be more than happy for it to be a press fit rather than pinned or more likely peened and as an owner living with the owl inside the clutch I would say the noise is definitely one I've had on other needle rollers installations. I would struggle to understand that they had ever used a bronze alternative.

I have often used both oven and freezer to get bearings to drop into location with great success, I've never known condensation to cause any long term problems from freezing, it would only be external on a sealed bearing surely?

Craig, do you know what grade of locktight (or alternative) is used on the many fixings please? Even the colour would help.

Glad it is coming together for you and the balanced/reconditioned parts look the business!

 

[CraigWaterman11]

2b1 sorry I might of confused folks, I don't know what they used originally or what type of bearing it was superceded from. It was purely speculation from what I saw in other manufacturers here in the U.S. from days past, but I didn't really look for the design they used to have or what it was. I agree ball bearing over needle bearing any time I can get it. More durable and less of a chance of problems.

The condensation issue I've never really heard yea or nay on through the years. I wasn't necessarily speaking towards a rust or oxidation aspect as I was thinking when you freeze shrink one metal to insert it into another for something important like a Pilot bearing or bushing, like a glass of ice water that builds condensation on the outside I didn't want that between a metal I wanted absolute friction for. I could actually be way over thinking it and it not be a problem at all. But what if that condensation also brought an early on-set owl or pig with it.....more or less the sounds they make. It would be quite comical indeed to see either of those sitting in the bell housing! Again I could be over rationalizing it but water can act as a lubricant, and so for these applications I've never used freeze shrinking for it. I'm not saying it's not an excellent tool to use at times though. I've just never seen a service manual recommend freeze shrinking for the Pilot bearing, and I've always welcomed the friction of pressing it into the crankshaft. Additionally as to date I've never had one fail on me from an install, nor have I damaged one......(knock of wood!).

The service manual recommends Loctite 242 from what I read. It's blue in color, and it's a medium thread locker. I am actually using Permatex as it's a good company as well, for whatever reason that's just what I use. It's the same strength and color. Both are pretty much universal application thread lockers for nuts and bolts.

 

[2b1ask1]

Thanks Craig; it is as much to get the locktight number here on the thread as anything to save searching for it when needed

I wouldn't worry about condensate between the surfaces for a couple of reasons, if it was in any volume it would be squeezed out during the expansion, and the aluminium would be subject to galvanic oxidization if there was any residual, I'm sure this would act as a bond between the materials.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

2b1 yes that's true, it should push it out on expansion. Again I've never really had a problem on Pilot bearing installs but..... It's a nice tool for ball joints and stuff like this so I will definitely try it next time I get a chance. I usually freeze one and heat the other one up if it's a really tight fit. Either way okay noted! Also I'm sure your aware that neither the bearing nor where the bearing sits is aluminum but your were probably thinking quick like I do at times here's a pic of the old one for reference:

 

[maverick]

Thanks Craig; it is as much to get the locktight number here on the thread as anything to save searching for it when needed

I wouldn't worry about condensate between the surfaces for a couple of reasons, if it was in any volume it would be squeezed out during the expansion, and the aluminium would be subject to galvanic oxidization if there was any residual, I'm sure this would act as a bond between the materials.

LOCTITE 638

Retaining Compound - high strength. General purpose. Fast curing.

LOCTITE 638 is designed for the bonding of cylindrical fitting parts, particularly where bond gaps can approach 0.25 mm. The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close-fitting metal surfaces and prevents loosening
and leakage due to shock and vibration. It not only works on active metals but also on passive substrates, exhibiting robust cure performance. The product offers high-temperature performance
and good oil tolerance, and tolerates minor surface contaminants.

Your benefits

High temperature resistance
Tolerates minor contaminants, including industrial oils
High strength on all metals, including passive substrates (e.g. stainless steel)
Ideal for shafts, gears, pulleys and similar cylindrical parts
P1 NSF Reg. No.: 123010
DVGW Approval (EN 751-1): NG-5146AR0619
WRAS Approval (BS 6920): 0511518

Technical Data
Colour: Green
Max. gap size: 0,25 mm
Service temperature range: -55 to +180°C
Tensile shear strength in N / mm²: > 25
Approvals: P1 NSF Reg. No.: 123010
DVGW Approval (EN 751-1): NG-
5146AR0619
WRAS Approval (BS 6920): 0511518
Fixture time steel: 4 min
Thixotropy: No

 

[2b1ask1]

.... Looks at feet! Doh! Yes of course the crank would be steel I was (in my mind's eye) thinking more of engine and gearbox rebuilds where typically I've been working in aluminium crank cases etc. These are often better served by the oven/freezer technique to avoid stressing the casing with repeated impacts. I've seen my dad many years ago use dry ice packed around the bearings to shrink them! They simply dropped into place..! Easily worth considering if you have a large number to do at one time.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

@2b1 yes...yes dry ice! Some use acetone with it. Stuff is nasty! Great for things like that!

@Maverick I was quoting the service manual on that. I'm sure there's tons of different types that could be used. But if uncertain, if you follow the service manual you know you always have what was recommend for it. Additionally, if it's the same stuff I just looked up it has a dry time of 5 mins. this wouldn't work in areas that you needed to break down the torque specs and take your time to tighten it down. The best instance of this was the pressure plate with the 9 allen/hex bolts. It took me a good 15 mins. if not more to go back and forth a little at a time to make sure I didn't bind any of the hex bolts.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

@Klive, Conaero, and Maverick.....
I wanted to let you guys know that, and this is border line hilarious to me, I found the information Klive was speaking about! Better yet let me tell you how I found it.....the service manual, and all the updates Chris (Catman) sent to me a while ago, and subsequently I have been sending to others who wanted it actually contained a separate document outlining the procedure! I was made aware of it from a member on this forum after I sent it to him!! LOL! ha this is funny to me, I had it all along but it was one document out of many that came with the service manual I never looked at because a few of them seemed they were inapplicable for what I needed. I jumped right to the service manual. Maverick you'll be happy to know they recommend Loctite 638 around the bearing like you were suggesting before. So let's get to it and document it for the forum

First so the bearing Klive was referencing is the Clutch Center Shaft bearing, not the Pilot/Spigot bearing. Because of the design of our type of cars with the center shaft bearing I guess it can give the same or similar sound as if it was the Pilot bearing if it should let go. I tried to upload the PDF file but could not, so I took photos and enhanced them so you can see the documents:

This is the entire procedure, seems pretty simplistic, so what they are punching is the circumference of the bearing seat inside of the bell housing. They aren't punching the metal into the bearing on the outside. They are creating 6 different punch marks inside the seat itself. I can think of two reasons they are doing this. First, I think they are creating small abrasive punches to catch the bearing to keep it from spinning in the seat once the bearing is re-installed. Secondly they talk about the depth of the punches. I'm pretty sure the second part of this is creating micro reservoirs that would slightly pool the Loctite 638 for a stronger bond in those 6 adequately spaced punch holes. I will hand this part off to Maverick because this seems to be his specialty. I have to be honest though I understand why they are punching it, it seems to me when they go to press the bearing in, it's just going to flatten any abrasive characteristics it had because it's soft metal there. I think what really is the key to the whole operation is the Loctite 638. Even the micro reservoirs seem unnecessary because if I can see it correctly there's a ring inside the seat itself the 638 would of pooled in. Of course that's just my opinion. So here you have it guys this is what was being referenced earlier by Klive, and the Loctite 638 that Maverick recommended for these type of bearing applications was spot on as well.

Almost forgot it was Darren that caught the Maserati bearing document when I sent it to him.

 

[maverick]

good work Craig ,I can see where there have punched it now and yes it would certainly help but not realy a true engineering solultion ,as we would say a bit of a bodge. i think the real problem is the fit or to be more precise the interferance fit between the two mating parts , as we all know the squeal tends to go when the cars have warmed up sugesting that the metal has expanded causing it to close on the bearing ( gripping it more tightly so to speak ) i think a increase of the bearing diametre by 0.02mm or 0.0008" depending of the bearing size with the addition of the loctite would be the correct way to go about things, but having said all that if the punching works again as we would say if it isnt broke there dont try to fix it .

 

[Klive]

That makes a little more sense compared to the way it was described to me. Thanks Craig.

 

[CraigWaterman11]

Klive honestly, I should be thanking you because as I said there was a forum member I met over here on Sunday. He described this exact thing and well I jumped immediately to the common pilot bearing noise, not really remembering that the clutch shaft bearing itself could let go.

Maverick I totally agree with what you stated. Bullet point three in that technical service bulletin mentions a "modified" bearing I'm going to look it up see if I can find what they are talking about. (scratch that, they are talking about the crankshaft bearing there not the clutch shaft bearing). Additionally my bearing was really difficult to get back into place. I wonder what they did to the "modified" bearing? I would have noticed loctite on it, or punch marks in the bearing seat and there weren't any. What I really don't want to do is take the entire bell housing apart again. I don't want to get back in there messing with that F1 sensor. Some have had them prematurely fail after replacing them brand new, that's not to mention moving that slave/thrust bearing out again. I think honestly because the slave cylinder sleeve the thrust bearing rides on doesn't contact the clutch shaft at all. I'm almost betting I can take that retaining clip from the rear of the bell housing holding the center shaft bearing in and take the shaft right out the back. I have to look at some of the photos I took. It would also help the other forum member I was talking to because we wouldn't have to open the bell housing area either. All the hydraulics for his car would stay intact except for the quick disconnect on the gear box.