Smoking...!

[CatmanV2]

Yes and no!

All 4.2 QP5s with the F1 gearbox are dry sump. They have red cam covers.

All ZF automatic 4.2 QP5s are wet sump, with blue cam covers.

All 4.7 QP5s have the ZF automatic, are wet sump and have red cam covers.

Simple

Cheers, fella. I had a feeling it was sort of simple

C

 

[TimR]

There are one or two oil additive's available that do soften old nitrile based engine oil seals.....
Dave

It seems tricky trying to get a product that works without particulate additives that clog, a chemistry that doesnt work by first swelling, then shrinking the seals, or specific to nitrile..! Feels like a lottery but I bought this....
https://www.mister-auto.co.uk/oil-additive/bardahl-1107_g900020_a9781107.html

Whether I decide to use it ? If it blows that much smoke again, I’d probably try it.

 

[philw696]

Are the mechanics in a bottle for a few quid
I have personally spent nearly £40,000 on my tool kit over 40 years and still building it.
Learn something new on a regular basis too.

 

[TimR]

The problem isnt cynnicism, Im sure the chemists can come up with something that does as it claims...
The difficulties arise when folk with little knowledge ( Moi !? - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!) try to make the decision as to when/if it is a worthwhile compromise...For to be sure, I'll wager there are downsides. Ive seen enough medicine to know drugs are not great at working in conjunction with other medicines. This can tie doctors in knots, and worse still for patients sadly....!
As a wet clutch biker, 'additives" has long since been a dirty word...! Not understanding the chemistry, or even the environment into which is to be placed ( ICE, oils, the various materials used in modern manufacturing, or even not that modern perhaps) all play a part in throwing the wrong gunk down the gullet of your favourite V8....

So I s'pose, there's no arguing with it if you prefer to roll up your sleeves and rip a car down down if it belches smoke occasionally ! It doesnt mean there isnt a product that couldnt do useful work on a specific element of the motors function. The problem lies in trusting the market place to pitch a product that has been carefully derived and robustly tested. Enough for the same market place to be clear about their products limitations...

but as Dave's assertion makes clear...there's oil in those there cylinders, and it aint sposed to be there...the Q is, why/how did it get there....? And why only sometimes does it push past whatever keeps it at bay...?

Bucket chemistry, voodoo science and anecdotal evidence...my three favourite things !

 

[Mr S]

My car is currently at Christian Lewis, 06 GS. It had a top end rattle on start up, and Eddie diagnosed it as the pressure relief valve. The rattle also appeared when the engine got hot. Not sure if yours does the same, but apparently Maserati up issued the part at some point, so it didnt fail like the originals.

 

[alfatwo]

My car is currently at Christian Lewis, 06 GS. It had a top end rattle on start up, and Eddie diagnosed it as the pressure relief valve. The rattle also appeared when the engine got hot. Not sure if yours does the same, but apparently Maserati up issued the part at some point, so it didnt fail like the originals.

But surely that's a cylinder head problem, connected with the hydraulic actuation of the inlet and exhaust camshaft timing

That wouldn't cause unburnt oil chucking its self out of the exhausts from time to time!

Dave

 

[tcrote5516]

Mine has done it once and only once since I've owned it. It lit up white smoke like the Vatican was announcing a new pope on startup. This can happen and not indicate any serious problem based on the expansion rates of the block, sleeves and piston since all three are of different metals. Oil can make it's way into the cylinder and while no, it shouldn't be there, because it's there doesn't mean anything is actually wrong so long as it's not a frequent occurrence.

 

[Mr S]

But surely that's a cylinder head problem, connected with the hydraulic actuation of the inlet and exhaust camshaft timing

That wouldn't cause unburnt oil chucking its self out of the exhausts from time to time!

Dave

My response was more in relation to the rattle, rather than the smoke, as the 2 may not be connected. However, the pressure relief valve, does let the oil drain down, rather than stay at the top of the engine. Im only saying what Eddie told me.

 

[TimR]

Where is the relief valve situated...?
I’ve looked on the parts fiche on Eurospares, such as it is but don’t see anything labeled” relief”, “ valve” or “ relief valve” but I may not be looking at the right section...?

TIA

 

[Mr S]

One in each head, and the variators need removing to get to it apparently. Ferrari up issued them at some point, as they realized it was an issue, and at one point even replaced them under warranty. Apparently, when the variators get replaced, its normally done at the same time, as its obviously a lot easier, and cost efficient. Im only repeating what Eddie has told me.

 

[madmanmart]

Whatever the cause Tim, It's excess oil that's not supposed to be in the combustion chambers!
I'd say worn valve guides / oil seals


Dave

As a mechanical minded person I completely agree with Dave, valve stem seals or ring seals are my first thought.
Anyone saying a quirk of the Engine is talking nonsense.

 

[Zep]

I'm not sure its fair to say there has to be a problem to cause occasional smoke on start up. Oil can migrate in closed systems occasionally due to temperature differences - not specifically engines - or there could be high crankcase pressure after a thrashing that drives oil through the blow by system which give a single event of oil smoke. The rule of thumb for me is, if it is consistent and happens every time, or if increases in frequency / intensity, then it is a progressive component / wear problem. If it is occasional and does not increase in frequency (or can be related to specific circumstances) then it isn't something to worry about. We are not talking about Volkswagens here.

The point is that a mechanical system does not fix itself, if its rings, valve guides or seals it will do it every time and get worse over time.

 

[tcrote5516]

As a mechanical minded person I completely agree with Dave, valve stem seals or ring seals are my first thought.
Anyone saying a quirk of the Engine is talking nonsense.

Not remotely accurate. There's plenty of documented instances where this can happen once in a blue moon due to different expansion rates and no real problem.

 

[rockits]

Mine does it now & again as others have said when reversing out of garage.

My 4200 is late 2007 car with 14k miles & runs very very sweet. I can't imagine there is much wear or issues with the engine in this car at all.

 

[miket]

Mines on 23k miles and sometimes I get a little blue smoke on start up from cold, but it’s more often that I don’t.
Car runs perfectly, so I don’t let it concern me.

 

[conaero]

Having had 3 4200's Ive seen the white smoke on start up many times and not worried about it. I did do a little research back in the day and it appeared to be overfueling on startup which is a characteristic of this engine. It used to do it when not using the car for a few weeks and put it down to the ECU and low battery from non use. The ECU properly ran on low power so did a 'relearn' and hence why it initially adds too much fuel on start up.

Needless to say this happened once on occasion on all three of my 4200's so I never worried about it.

Blue smoke is a different matter.

 

[safrane]

As I said earlier in the thread and was informed by Emblem if Poole.

 

[madmanmart]

Bottom line is no Engine should be emitting blue smoke.
Show me where a manufacturer documents differently?

 

[TimR]

Bottom line is no Engine should be emitting blue smoke.
Show me where a manufacturer documents differently?

Well...exactly ! Which is why I started the thread with an exclamation of testicular proportions...!

That said however, there seems to be any number of undocumented episodes. Anecdotal evidence that quite a number of these ( M138 ) engines DO smoke on occasion...
Make of it what you will.

For now, I think Im going to take a seemingly logical view, Zep has described...

"....for me, if it is consistent and happens every time, or increases in frequency / intensity, then it is a progressive component / wear problem. If it is occasional and does not increase in frequency, then it isn't something to worry about..."

Not forgetting of course a simple reality..
"...The point is that a mechanical system does not fix itself, if its rings, valve guides or seals it will do it every time and get worse over time...."

Grtzzz....!

 

[Zep]

Bottom line is no Engine should be emitting blue smoke.
Show me where a manufacturer documents differently?

You are right of course, no manufacturer is going to tell you blue smoke is normal. But a mainstream manufacturer with a vehicle under warranty will also tell you that oil consumption of over a litre per 1000 miles is “within tolerance”. In the end you pay your money and take your choice. We have enough to worry about with our choice of steeds. The anecdotal evidence suggests that these lumps are very robust (even Benny’s engine still has all its internal parts on the inside) so let’s just go back to worrying about clutch tangs, suspension arms and hydro locking