Gransport starter issue - where are all the ground connections?

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Oxytorch

Junior Member
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122
The other issue I have with my Gransport is that it won't start, which is a bit of a bummer to say the least.
It started to occur about six or seven weeks ago in early May.
I had the starter motor/solenoid serviced about a month ago, but the same problem recurred within a week.
All you hear is the click click of the solenoid.
Had it towed to the workshop but of course it started fine every time over the week they had it so I took it back home and within two days, it happened again.
They seemed to think it was no problem with the starter. They queried a bad ground connection but couldn't find one.
Got a mobile auto electrician to come around today. He checked ground to the chassis and engine block - ok. Managed to get it started by connecting the starter directly to the battery I think.
The car is now at the auto electricians for diagnosis/repair. I'm still not sure if it's just a solenoid problem or bad ground.
So just wondering where all the ground connections are located? Is there another one that goes to the clutch housing?
I did have the main alternator cable reinsulated at the beginning of March because all the insulation had been eaten away somehow. I think it has a connection to the starter motor? Could this have anything to do with the current problem?

Thanks!
John
 
Parisien

Parisien

Moderator
Messages
34,927
Battery, connections, earths.....almost always those if starting an issue, assuming starter/alternator/plugs/leads fine, again an SD test would help if simple auto electric checks dont help


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zagatoes30

zagatoes30

Member
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20,959
Battery, battery and battery - never known a car be so susceptible to weak battery issues. Touchwood mine has always been fine.
 
Parisien

Parisien

Moderator
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34,927
Could even be dud battery even if new, cell dies, no amount of recharging/trickle charging will help


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Oxytorch

Junior Member
Messages
122
I'm sure it's not the battery because the auto electrician started it today off the car battery. It is a brand new battery (that was the first thing that was done when this problem surfaced). The start problem occurs intermittently. For example, I couldn't get it started on Sunday morning but that evening after repeated attempts it cranked and started. Had no problem starting at all on Monday. And when it cranks, it does so very vigorously, faster than the old battery it replaced. Come Tues am, no start again. I have tightened the battery connections to the point that I thought I would strip the bolts. Voltages normal both with ignition off and engine running.
 
CatmanV2

CatmanV2

Member
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48,806
Yep.

Thing is there's no direct connection between the turn of the key and the delivery of voltage to the starter, like there used to be. At least that's my theory. The system does a load of checks when you turn the key, and then it gives PTS (permission to start). Something *seems* to fail along that part. Just about every time (in fact I can't think of a reported case here that it wasn't, but open to be corrected) it's been traced down to battery or connections.

Brand new battery may mitigate against that part.

Intermittency tends to suggest loose connections. Is there a substantial temperature difference between Sunday morning and evening in your last issue?

C
 
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Oxytorch

Junior Member
Messages
122
No substantial temp difference. It has only occurred when engine is cold. Occasionally it has cranked after just a few solenoid clicks. If it doesn't start and I keep trying, after a minute or so of repeated attempts the solenoid clicks dwindle and eventually nothing happens at all. I have posted a couple of videos demonstrating what occurs.
[video=youtube;gIjkAdt33EA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIjkAdt33EA[/video][video=youtube_share;mZEU2Dz7Ecs]http://youtu.be/mZEU2Dz7Ecs[/video]
 
conaero

conaero

Forum Owner
Messages
34,632
Its your battery or loose terminals or connection in the main feed to the starter.

Change your battery for a new quality one and remove the tracker that is scavenging charge from the battery.

These were the terminals on the positive battery connecter that were loose and caused my starting issues:

asset.jpg
 
CatmanV2

CatmanV2

Member
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48,806
Having listened (and been drinking all evening) I'd lay serious money on that being a dud battery or bad connection. I know that's not what you want to hear, but it's totally classic symptoms.

Have you tried putting the battery on a tender or charger?


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mjheathcote

mjheathcote

Centenary Club
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9,038
I've had the same issue, but with my 40 year old Stag!
In the Stags case, you turn the key and the solenoid just clicks. The starter might engage on the next key turn, or the 30th!...then the next day no problem at all.
The problem, which might be the same, is that from turning the key a current has to pass through the contacts in the switch barrel, inhibitor switches (to ensure in park or neutral), block connectors then the starter solenoid itself. If these are corroded slightly or simply worn out, you don't get the full voltage at the solenoid...enough to click...but not enough to fully engage the starter motor.
The test if this might be the case, is to supply a direct 12v supply from the main battery feed to the starter, direct to the solenoid terminal. If the solenoid engages properly every time, you know you have a corrosion/worn or burnt contact issue.
In the Stags case, and there is no reason why you can't do the same to the Maserati, is to wire a 40amp relay local to starter solenoid, so all the ignition switch barrel/block connectors etc have to pass is enough to engage the 40amp relay, and let the 40amp relay then pass the voltage and current to engage the solenoid, local to the starter motor.
You could call it a bodge...but could solve the problem and time and expense replacing switches and connectors.
 
davy83

davy83

Member
Messages
2,823
There are a couple of things you might want to consider given the battery and loose connections route is not getting you any where. There is a heavy braid ground link that it strapped under one of the starter mounting bolts and runs down onto the body just around the bell housing area. Check if this is corroded? this can cause odd starting issues. The other thing might be the starter its self. I had an original Valeo starter on my car and it was never very convincing on starting. on replacing this with the Bosch unit it was much improved. Now that could be just better ground connections as i cleaned all this up, but i reckon the Bosch unit is better. Just a thought?
 
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Oxytorch

Junior Member
Messages
122
Yippee! After a whole week I finally have my car back from the Auto electrician. They pulled the starter motor, rechecked and refitted new contacts. It would start 99% of the time then just when they thought it was right - click click click.

So they pulled it again and wired in a relay (as suggested above) to ensure it was getting full voltage/current. Again they thought it was sorted when click click click.

At this point they suggested it might be time to get a new starter motor. Hard to come by in Australia - was just one new one at a Warehouse for Ferrari Sydney dealership and two used ones at Wreckers going for $450 and $690. I bought the new one for AUD$930 and had it shipped to the Auto electrician. And of course, click click click.

Catmanv2, it turns out you were right on the money. This time they were finally able to trace the problem to some issue between the ECU and Start button. I was told the ECU was getting confused and not permitting ignition to occur. I'm not exactly what was done but they did some rewiring to the Start button and she is finally starting reliably. Starting is a little different now. For example, the brake pedal doesn't need to be depressed to start. Also, the gearbox symbol doesn't show on ignition any more but it still shifts into N if Start is pressed when the car is in 1 or R. Including the cost of the previous starter rebuild and purchase of the new starter motor, it's been a costly exercise of over AUD$2000 but I now have a spare starter motor...

J
 
CatmanV2

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
48,806
OK, glad it's working.

Personally I'd be a little bit worried about the brake pedal thing, but you're mobile :)

C
 
conaero

conaero

Forum Owner
Messages
34,632
Yes, same here about the brake pedal I am concerned about this, but I suppose it beats walking.
 
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Oxytorch

Junior Member
Messages
122
As it is my daily drive, it was rather inconvenient. And every start was with major apprehension.
What's the concern re the brake pedal? I guess it makes it easier for a kid to start the car but my kids aren't allowed in very often.
Also, I think it's actually the P< symbol in the gear display that used to show during ignition with the car in 1 or R. This doesn't show now but maybe that was another symptom of the problem?
J
 
CatmanV2

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
48,806
Well I have two concerns I guess

1) The brake interlock is a safety feature. Given it's pretty much impossible to manually ascertain if the car is in neutral, there is a possibility that you could have an un-intended take off as it were. Small risk, thought
2) I'm rather more concerned at the changes in behaviour and what that indicates about the bypassing that's been done. It sounds like you may well have bypassed nearly all the diagnostics that the car does before PTS is granted, and I wonder if there's possibility of causing damage somewhere.

I think, on balance, if it was mine I'd want to get behavour back to stock by finding out what the actual problem was as soon as.

On the other hand, I'd also be happy to be driving :)

C
 
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