Engine Flushes Not All The Same

philw696

Member
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25,461
Guiys for quite a few years i have been using Forte products not the cheapest but i have always been a believer of you get what you pay for.
We are members of The Good Garage scheme and work to a industry standard code of practice and do not do £99 service and mot as you will not get a lot other than your car passing a minimum standard laid down a good few years ago.
Anyway yesterday had a visit from our Forte guy and he asked if we could do a compression test on a car i was to service.
The car happened to be a 2005 Kia Sportage 2.7 V6 that came in with a broken crank pully with a 126,000 miles on the clock.
6 compressions taken all around 200 psi.
Put a flush in the engine and a gas treatment in the tank and drove spiritedly for 10 minutes.
Drained oil and changed filter refilled sump and ran for 10 mins.
6 compressions taken and now all around 220 psi.
So there you go.
Phil.
 

lozcb

Member
Messages
12,564
Very interested Phil , have you done the Masser yet , anychance you could do a pictoral how to and post on the tech section , with the results


regards loz
 

philw696

Member
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25,461
Happy to do that Loz in the near future and if any one wants some genuine Forte treatments i will be happy to bring some along to meets.
Use the treatments in all my motors but that was the first time i have done that.
Whats amazeing is the particular vehicle only gets serviced when things go wrong and allways overdue.
 

lozcb

Member
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12,564
That would be brilliant Phil , look forward to it , i for one would be up for some

regards loz
 

conaero

Forum Owner
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I am sure Mike Roberts will have something to say about this. We were having the very same conversation about flushing, and he told me that flushes cause the seals to fail, something to think about, dont know if Mikes advice is right or wrong, but I generally dont ignore his advice.
 

philw696

Member
Messages
25,461
Thats interesting Matt we also had a bearing test piece of kit where we checked other flushes for there lubrication quaulities and those results were shocking with the damage that 2 other top brands caused.
Will be interested to see what Mike has to say.
Phil.
 

lozcb

Member
Messages
12,564
Ive heard this before ,one of the reasons ive asked for results , very interested in the outcome , suppose its all in/down to the additives etc etc , will wait the outcome , anychance you could pm Mike , Conaero and get him to give his 2 penny worth on this , just in the process now of spring/summerising the beasties and would like to get this sorted soon as


regards loz
 

Emtee

New Member
Messages
8,446
Having just had my engine flushed, and now having oil pressure problems, this has got me a bit jittery! I'll find out what product they used.
 

conaero

Forum Owner
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34,631
What I was always told to do, was go to the supermarket and put 5 litres of value oil for like £5, and use that as a flush.
 

Parisien

Moderator
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34,927
Flushing is listed on main dealers servicing schedules as ......Oil/fuel flushing costs approx £60 and done every 2 yrs.......interested in Mikes and other indies comment...bit of controversy/concern over this!


P
 

philw696

Member
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25,461
Guys do not flush using value/cheap oil especially in high performance modern engines.
Emtree your oil pressure sender is probably just duff.
What flush was used in your car?
As far as im aware Forte is the only one with lubricant qualities.
I await further comments but i use in all my own cars and Forte products are fully guaranteed.
Phil.
 

Emtee

New Member
Messages
8,446
Guys do not flush using value/cheap oil especially in high performance modern engines.
Emtree your oil pressure sender is probably just duff.
What flush was used in your car?
As far as im aware Forte is the only one with lubricant qualities.
I await further comments but i use in all my own cars and Forte products are fully guaranteed.
Phil.

Don't know Phil, but I'll ask and let you know. I'm hoping that only working on Fezza's and Maser's, Shiltech will have used the good stuff.

You may be right about the sender, but this has only just been replaced, and did seem to solve the needle in the oil pressure dial spiking, but I guess the new one may need 'adjusting'?

I'm probably worrying unduly, and my next port of call is the PRV, but hearing the flush could actually cause problems rather than solve them was a bit of a nasty surprise! :(
 

Roberts Aerospace

SPONSOR: Maseratished
Messages
47
What you have to consider is what problem is flushing designed to cure or prevent?

With old fashioned mineral oils with low detergent and suspension properties, combustion products wouldn't necessarily be cleared from the engine and held in suspension adequately. So, a product with a higher solvent power could be added to the oil and that would remove the products of combustion from wherever they might have ended up. My personal preference with these types of engine is to use a dedicated flushing oil that will not only clean the engine, but that which has been cleaned from the engine is held in the flushing oil and this removed from the engine. Just putting a flushing additive into engine oil that might have been in the engine for some time is of limited benefit if the ability of the oil to hold the cleaned material in suspension has been exceeded - which is the point of changing oil in the first place.

For instance, with my 1966 Aston Martin, I use Duckhams 20w50 Multigrade mineral oil - as recommended by the manufacturer. I do flush the engine occasionally, but as the oil needs to be changed ever 1500 miles (really), it's usually pretty clean.

The problem with flushing oil in a modern car designed for modern fully-synthetic oils is that modern oils are already extremely agressive as clearing combustion products from the engine. Also, the most complicated material you'll find in a 1960s engine is paper and cardboard, whilst a modern engine is full of various exotic materials that contribute to the robustness and reliability of modern engines. These materials are often immersed or bathed in engine oil and have to react in a predictable way to this exotic mix of chemicals. Change the chemical brew and these seals and gaskets can react in unpredictable ways. Often I've cured an oil leak in a customer car by simply draining out the "performance" oil that he's put in it and putting in the oil that the manufacturer originally designed it for. And, don't get me started on Castrol GTX and Alfa Romeo Variatiors. For some reason, they're just incompatible with each other.

I would never flush a modern engine's oil system when the car had been adequately maintained. In the case of a vehicle that had the same oil in for an extended period of time, where the suspension properties of the oil have almost certainly been exceeded, then, there may be some benefit. However, even then, I'd usually recommend that the correct oil be used, and simply changed once it had an opportunity to scrub the engine and absorb any contaminants - say 1000 miles.

Flushing the fuel system occasionally, however, may have some benefits. All sorts of crud builds up in that!

As regards Maserati recommended servicing operations, some are actually against the recommendations of the component manufacturer.

Finally, if you're wondering how an additive can increase the compression in a cylinder by 10% - as mentioned at the start of this thread - when it should make no difference at all, then consider this. With old and thick oil, there will be increased resistance to cranking. Clear out the thick oil, or thin it out with an additive, and the engine will turn over faster when being cranked, improving gas flow, reducing pumping losses, and thus increasing the apparent compression.

As ever, I'm always open to suggestions!

Mike Roberts
www.maseratished.co.uk
www.facebook.com/maseratished
 

lozcb

Member
Messages
12,564
Thanks for the input Mike , certainly one to ponder, plusses and minusses etc , maybe worth having a chat with a couple of indies to get a general consessus the make an informed decision


regards 36z
 

philw696

Member
Messages
25,461
Thanks for your comments Mike much appreciated.
Me too am always open to discussion and willing to learn even after 30 years in the proffesion.
Thankfully we don't have sludged up Ford cvh's any more where we used to remove the rocker cover and sump and give it a clean with the Karcher steam cleaner to get the crud out.
The biggest problem is long life serviceing how ever good the engine oil is.
Phil.
 

Parisien

Moderator
Messages
34,927
Interesting stuff clearly explained....so am wondering then why not ask the main dealers why they list it and the rationale behind Maserati stating it need sdone every 2 yrs.

P
 

Roberts Aerospace

SPONSOR: Maseratished
Messages
47
Interesting stuff clearly explained....so am wondering then why not ask the main dealers why they list it and the rationale behind Maserati stating it need sdone every 2 yrs.

I have asked the Maserati service people the same thing about various service operations that are inexplicable, contradictory, not best practice, or otherwise questionable, and every time I get the same answer "we wouldn't do it like that if it were left up to us, but, we're the main dealer and we have to do what the factory tells us to do".

It's not just things like lambda sensors - which the service schedule says to change on duration rather than miles - but also service operations that should get carried out MORE often than the official service schedule, like 4200GT air filters. I change them every year or 6000 miles as a matter of course, but the official schedule calls for them to changed less frequently. This means that when I get a car in that's been serviced by a dealer or a dealer-like independent, then the air filter I remove is usually clogged, rusted away, and often soaking wet.

I enclose a picture of filter that I took off a car that had not only been main dealer serviced its entire life, but just prior to this pic being taken, had actually been sold by a main dealer to the owner. This is by no means the worst one that I've seen.

Mike Roberts

PICT0006s.JPG
 

Parisien

Moderator
Messages
34,927
Only one word....shameful..................


Its like asking an Olympic athlete to perform at the highest level and never falter..................whilst smoking fags continuously..................who would do it?


P
 

philw696

Member
Messages
25,461
Unfortuneatley i see things like this on a daily basis and main dealers are the worst offenders.
Me what ever level of service i like to remove all wheels and trust me its no fun when you have to use a large block of wood and a lump hammer to get alloy wheels of the hubs.
Just do the job properly.
Its hard enough working in a proffesion that anybody and everybody thinks they can do.