BITURBO ENGINE DIMENSIONS

[JK95]

Hi.

Gonna start my first post with some sacrilege and say I'm considering a Biturbo engine for my non-italian classic car. The issue is, I can't seem to find the actual dimensions of the engine anywhere. Looking for height(preferably with intake), width and length of the engine. Anyone who might be able to help?

 

[Ewan]

It very much depends on which biturbo engine you mean, as they went from the 2.0 lt. V6 to the 3.2 lt. V8.

I still harbour ambitions of trying a Maserati engine in my Westfield, in place of it's current Rover 3.9 lt. V8. Clearly this would be relatively pointless and a waste of money, but might be fun and would make me smile.

 

[JK95]

It very much depends on which biturbo engine you mean, as they went from the 2.0 lt. V6 to the 3.2 lt. V8.

I still harbour ambitions of trying a Maserati engine in my Westfield, in place of it's current Rover 3.9 lt. V8. Clearly this would be relatively pointless and a waste of money, but might be fun and would make me smile.

Was going for 2.0 or 2.8 injection V6.

That sounds like a fun concept, hope you get there! I'm considering it for my Opel Kadett C, as a potential option to my iron block 4-cyl that I initially want to turbocharge. Being an alu block, I figured the V6 might not be too much heavier.

 

[Erlingtheyounger]

It very much depends on which biturbo engine you mean, as they went from the 2.0 lt. V6 to the 3.2 lt. V8.

I still harbour ambitions of trying a Maserati engine in my Westfield, in place of its current Rover 3.9 lt. V8. Clearly this would be relatively pointless and a waste of money, but might be fun and would make me smile.

Bit of a tangent but they did fit a couple of Maserati engines into Lotus XI’s in period so it is a path that has been trodden before, though not recently! A friend of ours has one of those cars, minus that engine. It would cost a pretty penny to buy said engine now!

 

[zagatoes30]

Friend is shoe horning a V6 Biturbo engine into an Alfa 155 and making it rear wheel drive at the same time, although I haven't seen an update recently might give him a nudge to see how he's getting on.

 

[zagatoes30]

I still harbour ambitions of trying a Maserati engine in my Westfield, in place of it's current Rover 3.9 lt. V8. Clearly this would be relatively pointless and a waste of money, but might be fun and would make me smile.

I think this is a cool idea, do it after all you can't take it with you

 

[Ewan]

BTW, the UK guru on the biturbo range is Andy Heywood at McGrath Maserati, so try calling him/them. They should be able to provide you size data.

 

[Ewan]

For the Opel Kadett, maybe this one?

Maserati Biturbo 222 420 430 ghibli 1991 2.0 V6 184 PS Bi-turbo Engine Moteur | eBay

Maserati 222 Biturbo 2.0 V6 Engine. The engine has been taken off running Maserati 222 biturbo 1991 with only 46587 miles covered. Over the years we have developed technology for repair cars such as Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, Bentley, Porsche.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[Ewan]

Here's what I'm thinking for the Westie. And as the bodywork and bonnet are just GRP, having sections refabricated to my own design/size needs, in the boat-hull-build shed here is no problem at all.

Maserati Quattroporte M139 Motor with Attachments Engine Motors 4,2L V8 400PS | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Maserati Quattroporte M139 Motor with Attachments Engine Motors 4,2L V8 400PS at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[JK95]

Thanks, will check out Mcgrath Maserati
I'll be looking for an injection engine, as I'd want to modernize the entire fuel and ignition system with a standalone ECU.
That V8 must be a hoot! Sadly too much power for me, got to stay under 270hp to get it registered, but with a turbo engine I'm allowed 40% over capasity on the hp rating of the turbo(S). So I could go to f.ex a single turbo setup that supports upto 375hp, but tuned for 270 on the street.

 

[Ewan]

I have 250hp in the Westie currently, with the whole thing only weighing about 700kg (before I get in!). So when it was released in 1993 it was the fastest car you could buy in the UK, 0-60mph-0. Beating the likes of the F40, the Jag 220, and the Bugatti EB110.
It doesn't need any more power. But just think it would be fun to build a normally aspirated Maserati-engined monster.

 

[Nayf]

Maserati Barchetta had a 315bhp Biturbo engine in 2.0 litre form, and weighed 775kg.
It’ll be quite fun in a CaterField, I’d imagine.

 

[Ebenezer]

There was that TVR with a maser engine too.
Eb

 

[alpa]

Using a single big turbo on the biturbo v6 is against all the reasons they went twin turbo.
For a fun car I suggest you to not mess with the 24v version. Too complicated for not more power. The 18v version is cheaper and lighter and simpler. Take a 2.0 or 2.5 block (the same), use alloy or steel sleeves, forged pistons and all stock elsewhere. You'll get 270hp with stock 2.24 turbos (don't know if 2.0 18v 220hp turbos are the same). Ghibli/qp4 2.0 turbos would be too big if you want a broad torque range.

 

[JK95]

Using a single big turbo on the biturbo v6 is against all the reasons they went twin turbo.
For a fun car I suggest you to not mess with the 24v version. Too complicated for not more power. The 18v version is cheaper and lighter and simpler. Take a 2.0 or 2.5 block (the same), use alloy or steel sleeves, forged pistons and all stock elsewhere. You'll get 270hp with stock 2.24 turbos (don't know if 2.0 18v 220hp turbos are the same). Ghibli/qp4 2.0 turbos would be too big if you want a broad torque range.

I'm not sure I agree. First of, the turbo will not be massive, due to my countrys DMV regulations. Something like the Turbonetics C15 TNX 48/54, rated for 375hp, is probably as big as I'd be alloved to go. With a turbo designed 40 years after those on the Biturbo, with a billet compressor wheel and ceramic ball bearings, I might just even improve it. I also fear that the OEM turbos might make the engine too wide for my engine bay, so it might be easier to rather just run the pipe from one side to the other and both into the turbo, which would need to be in front of the engine.
I also see no issue with going 24v, as I'd assume it has more efficient flow. No matter 18v or 24v I'd still want the 2.0 and go for a more rev happy setup than a more torque-y 2.8, as well as due to the fact that the 2.8 might just be a thad big for the turbo I want. Would you really say I'd need new sleeves for under 400hp? Pistons I understand, but would the original sleeves really fail that early?
I would be tossing both the injection and ignition systems in favour of a modern aftermarket ECU, modern injectors and modern ignition, so getting a proper tune will not be an issue.

 

[alpa]

Your talk is likely based on some theoretical assumptions about these engines (as you don't even know their size). I'm giving practical suggestions based on the knowledge about these engines.
Sure beautiful modern turbos are quicker, however all the plumbery you'll need to drive around this 90 degrees v6 will be quite long. And you could also use two small turbos. Some people place two turbos above the exhaust ports on these engines. Btw, the engine is odd-firing.
I won't comment about the fact of using a 375hp turbo to work under 270 (as you said).
I gave you issues of these (and not some theoretical) 24v heads: cost, weight, complexity. Compared to the 18v heads.
And these 24v heads don't flow better than the 18v ones, for several reasons. Perhaps slightly better.
All biturbo v6 engines are largely oversquared, the (supposedly torquey) 2.8 would be very happy at 8000rpm (the 2.8 is a 94x67mm engine). But you said you wanted the 2.0.
You won't need new sleeves because of the power but because you won't find an engine in a condition that's good enough to race. They are all worn because the last item was sold somewhere 20 years ago. Then you'll have to decide if you keep the stock 2.0 aluminum sleeves (so you'll need to restore the nigusil, or better replace with nikasil), or you go with the 2.5 cast iron sleeves (to rebore), but you'd switch to 2.5 (group A biturbo were 2.5). Making full custom sleeves is a quite expensive operation, but it's possible.
Then you can decide to pay a ghibli/qp4 2.0
24v block with its specific crank, or to use the 2.0/2.5/2.8 crank. The 2.0 24v ghibli/racing/qp4 crank comes with lighter and longer conrods (smaller big ends), the older conrods were pretty short for the 63mm stroke, and much heavier. All the v6 blocks have the same deck height.
The 18v/24v heads are inter-changable on the blocks, the late crank goes to earlier blocks (same main bearings). Avoid the latest ghibli GT blocks with different main bearings. But they are so rare that I doubt you'll find one for a decent price.

 

[JK95]

Your talk is likely based on some theoretical assumptions about these engines (as you don't even know their size). I'm giving practical suggestions based on the knowledge about these engines.
Sure beautiful modern turbos are quicker, however all the plumbery you'll need to drive around this 90 degrees v6 will be quite long. And you could also use two small turbos. Some people place two turbos above the exhaust ports on these engines. Btw, the engine is odd-firing.
I won't comment about the fact of using a 375hp turbo to work under 270 (as you said).
I gave you issues of these (and not some theoretical) 24v heads: cost, weight, complexity. Compared to the 18v heads.
And these 24v heads don't flow better than the 18v ones, for several reasons. Perhaps slightly better.
All biturbo v6 engines are largely oversquared, the (supposedly torquey) 2.8 would be very happy at 8000rpm (the 2.8 is a 94x67mm engine). But you said you wanted the 2.0.
You won't need new sleeves because of the power but because you won't find an engine in a condition that's good enough to race. They are all worn because the last item was sold somewhere 20 years ago. Then you'll have to decide if you keep the stock 2.0 aluminum sleeves (so you'll need to restore the nigusil, or better replace with nikasil), or you go with the 2.5 cast iron sleeves (to rebore), but you'd switch to 2.5 (group A biturbo were 2.5). Making full custom sleeves is a quite expensive operation, but it's possible.
Then you can decide to pay a ghibli/qp4 2.0
24v block with its specific crank, or to use the 2.0/2.5/2.8 crank. The 2.0 24v ghibli/racing/qp4 crank comes with lighter and longer conrods (smaller big ends), the older conrods were pretty short for the 63mm stroke, and much heavier. All the v6 blocks have the same deck height.
The 18v/24v heads are inter-changable on the blocks, the late crank goes to earlier blocks (same main bearings). Avoid the latest ghibli GT blocks with different main bearings. But they are so rare that I doubt you'll find one for a decent price.

I don't know the exact dimensions of the block with turbos mounted, correct. But I have gotten the basic measurements, and when I got those I was warned that width might become an issue.
The 375hp turbo is because that is just about the biggest I can register for the road with 270hp, which means I can still have a "track map" in the ECU for max power when I go to trackdays. I don't suppose the OEM turbos are too happy with upwards of 350 crank hp?
Sorry if I was being ignorant, I am aware that they all are very oversquared. I just had this feeling the 2.0 might be more rev happy than the 2.8 either way, but I can of course be wrong. Not opposed to going for the 2.8 as such.
Noted, save my money and stick with the 18v then.
Was not aware of the aluminium sleeve issue, thanks for enlightening that. So only the 2.5 came with steel sleeves?

 

[alpa]

I won't write a book here about these engines. My suggestion: go 2.5 18v, like group A (apparently they made at least 500hp at 8000rpm and 1.6 bars boost). Use the 2.0/2.5 18v crank and block, late 2.0/2.8 18v heads (not from 2.5) and custom rods (longer than stock, with at least 22mm pins) and pistons. The 2.5 and 2.8 sleeves are cast iron, but 2.8 sleeves have a larger bottom, they require the 2.8 block. The 2.5 ones are the best, they are 8mm thick. It's an open deck.
Then modify valves and their springs to make them lighter and slightly larger (with stock seats). Stiffer valve springs.
18v cams are good, all the same.
The 18v 2.0 engine was not that rev happy. The 2.0 ghibli/qp4 was because of longer rods. But they had 20mm pins, it's not enough if you want 400hp to race, enough to show off. So the best is to use custom rods, not that expensive (150-200 euros per rod I guess).
The 2.8 revs very well. To me it's the best street compromise. But for racing the 2.5 is better.
For 350hp the 3200gt (ball bearing) turbos will be good. They are plug and play on 2.8 18v manifolds. However you'll get lag.
All 18v heads are the same, but carb 2.0/2.5 heads had smaller valves. All 18v rods as well, except for the pin that's 24mm on 2.8 and 22 on 2/2.5

Ps: avoid everything before 1987. The quality of the parts inside first engines was very poor. It became better even in 1986 but it's safer to start at 87.

 

[alpa]

So which dimensions do you want exactly ?
Btw you said DMV. I guess you are in the US.
The main question is: what do you want: a race engine that goes to the street, or a street engine that can race ? What's the working rpm range ? How much torque ? Do you want to go to 8000 rpm or do you just want the performance ?

 

[JK95]

I won't write a book here about these engines. My suggestion: go 2.5 18v, like group A (apparently they made at least 500hp at 8000rpm and 1.6 bars boost). Use the 2.0/2.5 18v crank and block, late 2.0/2.8 18v heads (not from 2.5) and custom rods (longer than stock, with at least 22mm pins) and pistons. The 2.5 and 2.8 sleeves are cast iron, but 2.8 sleeves have a larger bottom, they require the 2.8 block. The 2.5 ones are the best, they are 8mm thick. It's an open deck.
Then modify valves and their springs to make them lighter and slightly larger (with stock seats). Stiffer valve springs.
18v cams are good, all the same.
The 18v 2.0 engine was not that rev happy. The 2.0 ghibli/qp4 was because of longer rods. But they had 20mm pins, it's not enough if you want 400hp to race, enough to show off. So the best is to use custom rods, not that expensive (150-200 euros per rod I guess).
The 2.8 revs very well. To me it's the best street compromise. But for racing the 2.5 is better.
For 350hp the 3200gt (ball bearing) turbos will be good. They are plug and play on 2.8 18v manifolds. However you'll get lag.
All 18v heads are the same, but carb 2.0/2.5 heads had smaller valves. All 18v rods as well, except for the pin that's 24mm on 2.8 and 22 on 2/2.5

Ps: avoid everything before 1987. The quality of the parts inside first engines was very poor. It became better even in 1986 but it's safer to start at 87.

I mean, a book on all the specifics of the Maserati Biturbo V6 might be a bit niche, but I'd take one just out of curiosity!
Wow, thanks! That was a proper recipe too! Bit of a shame that it wouldn't be as simple as getting a 2.8 and change to forged internals, but instead needing two engines to combine into one, but what can you do? I am looking for a bit of an allround engine I guess, even if I know those don't exist. I want it to be fun at the track as well as for ice racing, but I'm by no means a pro, the 2.8 might be just as well for my use.
If the 2.8 goes well at 8000rpm I'd be happy, I only want the revs for sound, performance is not that big an issue. I just (wrongly) assumed the 2.8 might not like the revs.
I used DMV as it was the first I could think of, but Transportation Authority might do the same. Based in Norway. Want the engine for an old Opel Kadett C. The authority restricts my road legal hp to around 270 due to the light weight of the car, max 20Kw pr 100kg. But I'm allowed turbos with 40% over capasity, which makes for 370 and a bit. I fear the 3200GT turbos might put me a bit past that in maximum capasity? Anyways, will not be going for maximum performance, as my limit goes at roughly 370hp anyways. As long as I can get somewhere close to that I'm basically happy.

Thanks for clearing up a lot, very helpful!